# Let me be real clear: this message board does NOT need conservatives **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 28, 2021, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474 "2021-07-28T02:12:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 43
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/844 "2021-08-04T15:57:26Z")
> [@carrps](#): > > Mostly that it’s the defining feature. People use strong language, but that’s not the same as insulting people. The insult posts are a smaller proportion, and I don’t think “many” encourage them. It’s the same few. By defining feature, I mean that it’s the only place where insults are allowed. That defines it. If the insult posts are so few, then perhaps the forum is not needed. The rest of the threads could be placed in other forums. I’m not advocating for this, but the purpose for the forum is to have a place to insult people because you can’t do that in other forums. If not for that, the rest of the threads could go in other forums. And yes, swearing is allowed in all the other forums, just not as an insult to other members. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/845 "2021-08-04T16:00:41Z")
> [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](#): > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > First, I think I’ve been clear that some insults are different from others, and some affect my opinion of you more than others do. > > Yes, and if you’re just saying that you have a bias against certain insults because you’re insulted by things that are personal to you, that’s not surprising. But you seemed to be saying that there’s a class of insult that most people agree that they are worse than others and that people should think less of people when they use those insults. Yet you haven’t shown which insults those are or whether most people agree. Are you really not familiar with “slurs” in the sense that I’ve been using the word? I find this…incredibly surprising, and having already described what I mean, I don’t know what more I can do to clarify. I’m not going to type out a bunch of slurs. But no, it’s not “words that happen to describe me”. In general, the idea is that if you are insulting someone by saying they are a member of group that might be described in neutral terms, and by doing so, also implying that there’s something inherently wrong with being a member of that group, then you are using a slur. Especially if you are using a group that isn’t even related to the topic at hand. So, for instance, if you are arguing with a poster about how much to tip a taxi driver, and you call them a kike, you are using a slur. In general, I Miller doesn’t allow racial or ethnic slurs even in the pit. I would agree with those who would include “lard ass”, for example, as a slur. If you call someone a lard ass while disagreeing vehemently about tipping, you are using a slur, and I will think less of you. If you just say the person is “cheap” you may be insulting them, but it’s not a slur. (I did pick words that might be used to describe me, but only because I feel less bad using those slurs than other ones.) I don’t think this distinction is at all unusual on my part. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/846 "2021-08-04T16:02:01Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > You haven’t seen kids or even adults in college who purposefully do worse academically or avoid learning things because doing well or being too educated is looked down on? There are any number of reasons why people look down on education: women who think men aren’t attracted to girls who are “too smart”; minorities who think doing well in school is “acting white”; men who think “only needs care about that stuff”; people who look at higher education as the realm of “ivory towers” or “coastal elites”, etc. - you haven’t seen any of that? I recognize these as anachronistic stereotypes. The western society in which we live values knowledge, even the appearance of knowledge, far more than acting dumb to get along. Even Trump’s beloved “poorly educated” are busy pretending they know shit that those “ivory tower” liberals don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/847 "2021-08-04T16:04:32Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I recognize these as anachronistic stereotypes. I wish they were. But they still exist if in an only slightly more attenuated form. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/848 "2021-08-04T16:05:28Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Even Trump’s “poorly educated” are busy pretending they know shit that those “ivory tower” liberals don’t know. Lol yes. The ‘ivory tower liberals’ are all sheep engaging in group-think according to them. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/849 "2021-08-04T16:06:08Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > @Heffalump_and_Roo, you may be interested in this: has me laughing. I used to love reading Slate Star Codex. Thanks for the link. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/850 "2021-08-04T16:17:57Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > In general, the idea is that if you are insulting someone by saying they are a member of group that might be described in neutral terms, and by doing so, also implying that there’s something inherently wrong with being a member of that group, then you are using a slur. This is going full circle. Back to the conservatives. If someone insults someone for being a conservative in a derogatory manner, that’s a slur and you’ll think less of them? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/851 "2021-08-04T16:39:27Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I recognize these as anachronistic stereotypes. Anachronistic? I saw them every day just a few years ago when I went to school. I see these attitudes in the kids my wife teaches today. I see the related attitude, “you, my child, want to be more educated than me, your parent? Does that mean you think you’re better than me?” In parents of the kids my wife teaches, again, to this very day. If you think these attitudes are anachronistic, you aren’t paying attention. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/852 "2021-08-04T16:42:25Z")
> [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](#): > > If someone insults someone for being a conservative in a derogatory manner, that’s a slur and you’ll think less of them? Is being a “conservative” an innate part of who someone is, or is it a set of shared beliefs that a person holds? Here’s a question: if you can’t judge people based on their words or actions, what CAN you judge them on? Martin Luther King said he wanted his children to be judged based on the content of their character, not that they shouldn’t be judged at all. If someone criticizes conservatives for their ideas, beliefs, or actions, that’s “content of their character”. If someone criticizes gay people for being homosexual, that’s akin to “color of their skin”. Stupidity, when it isn’t being caused by an actual disability, is much closer to “content of their character” than “color of their skin”; ymmv, but that’s why all these cries of “but what about discrimination against stupid people” ring hollow, even aside from the fact that it’s not at all clear that smart people are the ones society privileges. ---
**Author:** ![Kron](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kron/32/12444_2.png) [@Kron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kron)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/853 "2021-08-04T16:55:15Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > People almost never chat with strangers full stop. Will you sponsor me to live in the UK? Please? I’ll beg, if necessary. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/854 "2021-08-04T17:05:50Z")
> [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](#): > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > In general, the idea is that if you are insulting someone by saying they are a member of group that might be described in neutral terms, and by doing so, also implying that there’s something inherently wrong with being a member of that group, then you are using a slur. > > This is going full circle. Back to the conservatives. If someone insults someone for being a conservative in a derogatory manner, that’s a slur and you’ll think less of them? Let’s look at some of the parts you left out of my quote: > [@puzzlegal](#): > > In general, the idea is that if you are insulting someone by saying they are a member of group that might be described in neutral terms, and by doing so, also implying that there’s something inherently wrong with being a member of that group, then you are using a slur. **Especially if you are using a group that isn’t even related to the topic at hand. So, for instance, if you are arguing with a poster about how much to tip a taxi driver, and you call them a kike, you are using a slur**. > > In general, I Miller doesn’t allow racial or ethnic slurs even in the pit. > I would agree with those who would include “lard ass”, for example, as a slur. If you call someone a lard ass while disagreeing vehemently about tipping, you are using a slur, and I will think less of you. **If you just say the person is “cheap” you may be insulting them, but it’s not a slur**. Bolding added. Insulting sometime for being “a conservative” in a discussion where they are, or claim to be, taking a conservative position is akin to saying your opponent is “cheap”, not to saying they are “kike” or a “lard ass”. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/855 "2021-08-04T17:11:11Z")
Usually, I see this coming from guys that inherited wealth, like Bush the lesser or Donald Trump. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/856 "2021-08-04T17:41:50Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Is being a “conservative” an innate part of who someone is, or is it a set of shared beliefs that a person holds? Probably partially: > **[Does brain structure determine your political views?](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27437799)** > > Timandra Harkness investigates whether our political views are linked to the physical make-up of our brains. > **[Are political views shaped by personality traits?](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55834023)** > > There is evidence that part of the answer about where our beliefs come from is deep-rooted in our nature. > [@Babale](#): > > Here’s a question: if you can’t judge people based on their words or actions, what CAN you judge them on? There’s a big difference between words and actions, and beliefs. We choose our words and actions, but we don’t choose our beliefs. Someone religious might think you’re a bad person for not believing in god, and therefore deserve to be insulted, but you can’t just choose to believe differently. Perhaps if they show you evidence, you might change your mind, and become a good person in their view… but it seems odd to link morality to empirical evidence like that. > [@Babale](#): > > Stupidity, when it isn’t being caused by an actual disability, is much closer to “content of their character” than “color of their skin”; ymmv, but that’s why all these cries of “but what about discrimination against stupid people” ring hollow, even aside from the fact that it’s not at all clear that smart people are the ones society privileges. Intelligence is quite strongly heritable, and in any case not under the control of the individual; much like skin colour. And as for privilege, would you choose to be less intelligent? Hardly. It’s one of the biggest advantages there is in western society. ---
**Author:** ![Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/do_not_taunt/32/2968_2.png) [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Do_Not_Taunt)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/857 "2021-08-04T17:54:46Z")
> [@Kron](#): > > Will you sponsor me to live in the UK? Please? I’ll beg, if necessary. You could just come live in [Seattle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Freeze), too. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/858 "2021-08-04T17:56:56Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Sure, but we aren’t talking about job opportunities, we are taking about slurs. I referred to missing out on employment opportunities as a societal harm, which were also mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/859 "2021-08-04T18:34:47Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Why are those things included in a special slur category when things such as class, accent, height, weight, hair colour, religion, politics, mental capability, skill proficiency, nationality, dress, artistic taste etc. etc. are not? Most of those do have terms that are considered slurs. The few that aren’t are choices, or at least quasi-choices. - There are tons of classist slurs. As someone who lives in northwestern Arkansas, I face face certain slurs about my class and economic status all the time. Don’t you dare call me a redneck or a hick or a hillbilly. Those are our terms. We may let you use them in an affectionate way, but not in a disparaging one. And do note that the word “cracker” got someone a Warning in the Pit, so it’s clearly a slur. - Accent: it’s generally considered racist to make fun of someone’s accent. I am also not aware of any slurs for having the wrong accent. - height and weight: there is a growing movement not to attack people for those. However, since at least the latter can be a choice, it is not considered quite so bad. - hair color: You haven’t heard the slurs about gingers? - religion: also at least partly a choice. That said, slurs against someone for their religion are pretty plainly bigoted. - politics: entirely a choice. - mental capacity: the r-word is indeed considered a slur. Calling someone “stupid” is not saying they have low mental capacity–it is saying they are willfully ignorant, which is a choice. - skill proficiency: I can’t really think of any slurs for that. But, in general, the things that are acceptable are the ones that are a choice, like things you could have learned and become better at. - nationality: Come on. Surely you know about this one. There have been several slurs that have been banned here hat attack someone for their nationality. You have ones against Irish people, Italian people, and so on. - dress: nearly always a choice. And, when it isn’t, it’s generally a form of classism. - artistic taste: A quasi-choice, and not something I can think of that people face slurs for. Simply saying your taste is bad is just itself a form of artistic taste. For something to be a slur, it must attack a class of people. It’s not just criticism. There are slurs about most of the topics you asked about. There’s a reason the insults that get thrown around in the Pit tend to be words like asshole, racist, shithead, and stuff that are not about any of those things you mentioned. Those are insults, but not slurs. And, for fuck’s sake, remember that language is messy, and there’s not always an exact rule for everything. That doesn’t somehow negate the whole concept. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/860 "2021-08-04T18:36:51Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Like insulting a fat person for being greedy? Some fat people eat less than many thin people. So if you’re insulting the specific person for their actual greedy behavior, that’s one thing; but if you’re assuming they’re greedy just because they’re fat, that’s ignorance. And if you choose to insult them for greediness, even if that’s the actual behavior, by using the word “fat” as an insult, then you’re randomly insulting a lot of other people on the basis of their body shape (and contributing, if minutely, to eating disorders.) > [@DemonTree](#): > > ME conservatives are mainly insulted based on their personal beliefs. It’s little different to insulting someone based on their religion. IME they’re mainly insulted due to espousing specific political beliefs, most of which have little if anything to do with what until recently was called “conservatism.” And no, I don’t think insulting people for, for instance, supporting overthrowing the electoral system of their country, or willfully encouraging the spread of disease, is “little different” to insulting them based on their religion. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Trump supporters are often insulted as being stupid, uneducated, lower class, and provincial (as well as being automatically assumed to be bigots, of course). I’ve objected to the first portions of those on these boards, and I’ve seen others do it also. There are plenty of Trump supporters who are well paid, well educated, and live in cities or suburbs. And I and others are here objecting, in significant part, to insulting anyone for being “stupid”. People who are supporting bigoted policies will indeed be assumed by some others to be bigots. That kind of goes with supporting bigoted policies. I acknowledge that there are people who see themselves as holding their noses on that and supporting Trump on other grounds. I also acknowledge that in some cases there are people who don’t recognize a particular policy as bigoted when that seems entirely clear to others. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > I’ve heard the life history of perfect strangers. > > My personal travel nightmare. > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > I’m pretty sure they weren’t secretly trying to get rid of me. > > On the contrary. They’ll talk the ears off anybody too polite to walk away, or unwilling to leap out the emergency door exit and bring the entire flight down with them. Then you should be glad puzzlegal and ilk are willing to talk with them. It keeps them from bugging you. Some people like to talk to strangers in public places. Others don’t. (Many of us are in one category some of the time and in the other at other times, depending on our mood at the moment, and/or the place, and/or the topic.) The first kind should pay attention to the signals of the second, and not try to insist on bothering them. But there’s nothing wrong with the first kind talking with each other. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > Yes, I have, and what I see is a lot of people acting stupider than they really are to fit in with a society that values conformity, not insightfulness or introspectiveness > > I don’t even know what you mean by this. > > Society functions largely due to “conformity”. And the thin veneer of civility. > > Insight and introspection is largely a solitary or almost solitary activity. Often achieved in therapy. QuickSilver, you’ve never known anybody to hide curiosity or knowledge in order not to annoy others? I’ve both done it and seen it in others. And IME both insightfulness and introspectiveness are enhanced by checking one’s insights and the results of one’s introspectiveness with others; plus which, depending on the results of the thinking, many people wind up with information that’s useful to share. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > Society functions largely due to “conformity”. And becomes worth functioning due to variety. Balance is very useful. > [@DemonTree](#): > > You’re listing ways in which society or some subgroups thereof possibly discriminate against smart people. But that is not the same thing as saying there is no discrimination against stupid people. Both can be true at once. Ah. That’s true enough. > [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](#): > > But you seemed to be saying that there’s a class of insult that most people agree that they are worse than others and that people should think less of people when they use those insults. Yet you haven’t shown which insults those are or whether most people agree. Seems to me that’s been explained multiple times in this thread; even before @puzzlegal does it again in post #845. > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > I just want to thank you for your concern that went all the way to including the slur and a link. > Now that we all have that I’m sure @MrDibble will be taket to task for his transgression. Already was. And promptly apologized. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/861 "2021-08-04T18:44:39Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > For something to be a slur, it must attack a class of people. It’s not just criticism. There are slurs about most of the topics you asked about. I think you have misunderstood. I agree that there are insults and slurs for most of the things Ilisted. What I was challenging was the need to have a _special_ category for the others slurs mentioned in the post I was replying to (i.e. race, ethnicity, gender etc.) I personally don’t see a substantial difference (or its practically a distinction without a difference) ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/862 "2021-08-04T18:50:37Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > In general, I Miller doesn’t allow racial or ethnic slurs even in the pit. If the rule is that we can’t complain about moderation in the Pit, we shouldn’t be permitted to praise it, either. The rules apparently permit you to praise Miller’s moderation, but prohibit me from disagreeing with you. That doesn’t seem right. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2021, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/863 "2021-08-04T18:53:22Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Already was. And promptly apologized. Absolutely. But would a member of the “out-group” have been given the opportunity to apologize, or would it have been curtains for that poster? Fair question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474.md?page=42) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474.md?page=44)