# Let me be real clear: this message board does NOT need conservatives **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 28, 2021, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474 "2021-07-28T02:12:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 47
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/924 "2021-08-06T10:04:56Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > In London a pastor was arrested for preaching against gay marriage (he was taken away in handcuffs and held overnight, and then released without charge). This is not tolerance. That is why I say both sides wish to enforce their beliefs on society; it is **not** simply a case of people complaining when restrictions are lifted. Just to note that he was arrested for preaching against gay marriage _in a public square_. Which changes the narrative a little, because it involves haranguing passersby - some of whom were undoubtedly gay - with hateful language in a public place. Preaching homophobic messages in a church is one thing, as your audience is there by choice and can leave if offended. Doing it at strangers just trying to get their shopping done is a different thing. In messageboard terms, he was being a jerk in the wrong forum. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/925 "2021-08-06T10:35:03Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > That does not mean agreeing to allow practices that harm other people. What the fuck do you think bigotry _does_? > [@DemonTree](#): > > > **keep them in check by public opinion** Well, we can see that’s failed, so even according to Popper it’s time. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/926 "2021-08-06T10:37:54Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > Nobody wants to examine their own side’s moral shortcomings or acknowledge that Popper was just as much talking about communists as fascists in his quote. Happily willing to look at the moral shortcomings of any communist or leftist you care to name. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/927 "2021-08-06T10:40:43Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Speaking != acting. That’s bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/928 "2021-08-06T10:49:11Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > So maybe some other post is meant? I’d still like to know for sure which one(s). You’ll have to ask **ZS**. I don’t think **GIGO** was doing what **ZS** said, but his posts don’t make much sense, even in context. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > But it only works when the people who think I’m going to hell don’t think they need to tell me about it. Or to do anything likely to damage me because of it. Which is exactly how it should be in tolerant society. They shouldn’t refuse to employ you, or serve you, or be polite to you. They should be able to say they believe X people are going to hell, but there’s no need to get in anyone’s face about it. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > [@DemonTree](#): > > > > The real issue is when the response is to try to get the person fired, or shun them etc. > > Well, if they won’t shut up about it, I’m certainly going to shun them; because I shouldn’t have to keep listening to that crap. That’s not what I’m talking about, though. I’m talking about trying to get someone fired, or shunning them just because you found out they hold a certain opinion. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > You’ve been having debates with progressives in which they said you were deserving of eternal torture?! > > _On these boards?!_ 🤨 I admit I expressed that badly, but I’m sure you’re smart enough to work out that I meant the debates with progressives are **not** respectful, and they are happy to sling the insults. Besides, I don’t believe in hell so that wouldn’t particularly bother me. If they called me a baby killer or something then it would hit harder. YMMV > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > The other point I was trying to make, somewhere back in there, is that for the person saying others deserve to be tortured eternally to then complain if those others call them a bigot in return is, how shall I carefully phrase this, inconsistent and unreasonable. If they’ve got a right to say that in public, then other people have the right to call them a bigot in public; or worse, because what they’re saying is much worse. Yeah, if someone specifically says to you that you deserve to be tortured eternally, then I think it’s pretty damn reasonable to call them a bigot. I’m thinking more of a situation where you’re having a discussion about religion, and someone says that yes, according to their religion anyone who doesn’t believe X, Y, and Z will go to hell. Not directed at someone in particular. Is it reasonable for people to call them a bigot in your opinion? Is it reasonable to contact their employer and try to get them fired? Or say you’re having a discussion on abortion. We could have one side calling the other murderers, and the other side calling the first side misogynists. Or we could have a polite debate with none of the name-calling. Personally, I think the second option is a lot more desirable. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/929 "2021-08-06T11:07:46Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@DemonTree](#): > > > > Speaking != acting. > > That’s bullshit. A pernicious and illiberal idea used by abusers to justify responding to words with violence, and by repressive governments to lock up dissidents. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/930 "2021-08-06T11:13:54Z")
Well, I’m not a fucking liberal, so I do not give two wet shits for what you consider illiberal. “Abusers”? You sound like your fellow transphobe **YWTF** with that one. “Respond with violence”? Richly ironic, given you’re speaking to one of the few actual pacifists here. Repressive governments _do_ consider speaking = acting. You know who else does? Every _other_ fucking government with slander and libel laws on the books. And every one with fraud laws on the books, for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/931 "2021-08-06T11:41:19Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Well, I’m not a fucking liberal, so I do not give two wet shits for what you consider illiberal. I know. Yours is exactly the sort of intolerance we ought not tolerate, because you don’t believe in liberal values. You’d have no qualms at censoring the press and imposing your ideas by force if you could. > [@MrDibble](#): > > “Abusers”? You sound like your fellow transphobe **YWTF** with that one. “Respond with violence”? Richly ironic, given you’re speaking to one of the few actual pacifists here. What else is the object of saying that words can hurt and harm people, and calling words (or even silence!) violence? It’s to justify responding to words with violence. Either directly or via the state. And this intolerance and authoritarianism is what so many on the left endorse now. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Repressive governments _do_ consider speaking = acting. You know who else does? Every _other_ fucking government with slander and libel laws on the books. And every one with fraud laws on the books, for that matter. Liberal governments don’t consider criticising the government to be the same thing as trying to overthrow it. And they don’t consider advocating to change a law to be the same thing as breaking it. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/932 "2021-08-06T11:46:56Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > **asahi** posted that (bold and underline added): > “We don’t need “the other side” of the debate or whatever the hell issue we’re talking about _ **if** _ they are committed to anti-intellectualism and deliberately undermining good faith discussion.” We don’t need to try to persuade the die hards, then? If you could make, say, Hannity drop some of the bullshit, that wouldn’t be a victory with ripple effects? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/933 "2021-08-06T11:51:02Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Yours is exactly the sort of intolerance we ought not tolerate, because you don’t believe in liberal values. My values, where they differ, are better. And “we” is doing a lot of heavy lifting there… > [@DemonTree](#): > > You’d have no qualms at censoring the press and imposing your ideas by force if you could. _Everyone_ censors the press, you just differ in what you’re happy to see censored. And the only force I support is that used to _prevent_ violence by the intolerant. > [@DemonTree](#): > > What else is the object of saying that words can hurt and harm people, and calling words (or even silence!) violence? It’s to justify responding to words with violence. No, it’s _also_ to call for a social response - good old cancellation and shunning. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Either directly or via the state. Asking the state to do its damn self-appointed job of protecting its citizens is not “abuse”. Not that I favour the existence of the state, either. But you work with what you’re given. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Liberal governments don’t consider criticising the government to be the same thing as trying to overthrow it. And they don’t consider advocating to change a law to be the same thing as breaking it. Yes, and…? Those aren’t the only kind of speech, and there’s plenty of it that they do consider to be acts. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/934 "2021-08-06T12:11:10Z")
I think the thesis in the OP has been sufficiently proven. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/935 "2021-08-06T12:48:09Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Just to note that he was arrested for preaching against gay marriage _in a public square_ . Which changes the narrative a little, because it involves haranguing passersby - some of whom were undoubtedly gay - with hateful language in a public place. Preaching homophobic messages in a church is one thing, as your audience is there by choice and can leave if offended. Doing it at strangers just trying to get their shopping done is a different thing. I know what this clown was doing. I really do. He was some hateful ranter, probably looking to start a fight. But as far as I can tell, he was only speaking (but correct me if I’m wrong). But is that the path we want to go down? Arresting, actually handcuffing (yes, I know he was turned loose the next day) people for the content of their speech? Some time ago, I posted (started a thread, in fact) about the Westboro Baptist crew (the “God hates f\*\*s” people) doing their thing. In front of St. Patrick’s Cathedral in New York City, on the day of the annual Pride March. I guess they were killing two birds with one stone, since apparently they hate the Catholic Church almost as much as they hate gay people. > [@Westboro Baptist at St. Patrick's This Morning](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/westboro-baptist-at-st-patricks-this-morning/836297): > > The Westboro Baptist Church crowd (you know, the “God hates fags” people) were out in force in front of St. Patrick’s Cathedral (in New York City) this morning. I guess the possibility of picketing the Catholic Church (because the Catholic Church isn’t hard enough on gay people, I guess) on the very day of the Pride March was too much for them to resist. There were about a dozen of them, with their usual signs. And there were about a dozen cops keeping an eye on things. It was all very peace… New Yorkers being New Yorkers, everyone was pretty much ignoring them. There were a few bored-looking cops keeping an eye on everything, but they weren’t really necessary. That seems like an infinitely better way of dealing with hate-filled street preachers than instantly giving them credibility (among their followers, if they have any) and confirming every delusional belief they have about being repressed and this being the end times and them being persecuted Christians in the catacombs and all that. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/936 "2021-08-06T12:51:15Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > My values, where they differ, are better. Have they ever been tested to see whether the produce a better society? You are an anarchist, yes? > [@MrDibble](#): > > _Everyone_ censors the press, you just differ in what you’re happy to see censored. > And the only force I support is that used to _prevent_ violence by the intolerant. Libertarians would not censor the press at all. I suppose you will say libel and false advertising are censored, but they are censored because they are false. You already told me you would prevent publishing the truth if you thought it would harm someone - as if anyone could be trusted to decide in secrecy, as if that course would not result in _much greater_ harm in general. > [@MrDibble](#): > > No, it’s _also_ to call for a social response - good old cancellation and shunning. “Also”. So you admit one reason is to legitimise violence in response to political speech? > [@MrDibble](#): > > Yes, and…? Those aren’t the only kind of speech, and there’s plenty of it that they do consider to be acts. That was the kind we were talking about, not libel or slander. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/937 "2021-08-06T12:58:06Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > I know what this clown was doing. I really do. He was some hateful ranter, probably looking to start a fight. But as far as I can tell, he was only speaking (but correct me if I’m wrong). > > But is that the path we want to go down? Arresting, actually handcuffing (yes, I know he was turned loose the next day) people for the content of their speech? Hell no. I oppose this from the right, and I oppose it from the left too. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/938 "2021-08-06T12:59:01Z")
> [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](#): > > If all he wanted to say was that people who are “committed to anti-intellectualism and deliberately undermining good faith discussion” are not welcome here, he didn’t need to add the part about conservatives. The fact that he added the part about conservatives shows that he was talking about conservatives, full stop. Otherwise, he would have titled the thread something about anti-intellectuals or people undermining good faith arguments instead. There are people like that on both sides. “People like that on both sides”? Sure, but not today. The point that you are grossly missing is that nowadays the idiot ball is embraced (in a mess of very important subjects and already cited) by the current conservative movement. That there are smart, good faith and not anti-intellectual conservatives should be encouraged, but then again, in this tread and other recent ones there is a lot of self declared ‘not anti-intelectual’ conservatives (and curiouser and curiouser “liberals”) that should know better than continue to tacitly support those anti-intelectual conservative movements. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/939 "2021-08-06T13:07:10Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > That there are smart, good faith and not anti-intellectual conservatives should be encouraged, but then again, in this tread and other recent ones there is a lot of self declared ‘not anti-intelectual’ conservatives that should know better than continue to tacitly support those anti-intelectual conservative movements. Are there a lot of ‘self declared not anti-intellectual conservatives’ in this thread? Who? But more importantly, you are mistaking criticising excesses on the left for supporting a conservative movement. They are not the same thing. That is why your posts about anti-vaxxers make no sense. No one is supporting anti-vaxxers, no one is supporting any kind of movement that encourages anti-vaxxers. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/940 "2021-08-06T13:16:16Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Have they ever been tested to see whether the produce a better society? You are an anarchist, yes? Anarchism is just my attitude towards government, not morality or social justice. It’s a big umbrella that incorporates lots of political leanings, some of them personally abhorrent to me. And anarchism has been tested, it’s worked pretty well _where it’s been allowed to_. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Libertarians would not censor the press at all. Rubbish. Each owner of a press would be free to censor it exactly as much as they wished, in Libertaria. > [@DemonTree](#): > > You already told me you would prevent publishing the truth if you thought it would harm someone Did I? I can’t seem to recall saying that, perhaps you could refresh my memory with a quote… > [@DemonTree](#): > > So you admit one reason is to legitimise violence in response to political speech? _Only_ in as much as you seem to consider lawful state response to be “violence”, do I admit that. Did you think this was some sort of gotcha, and that the “also” wasn’t deliberately placed there? What a thicko. > [@DemonTree](#): > > That was the kind we were talking about, not libel or slander. You were _not_ talking about repressive governments when you posted your bullshit, it was private speech, and private reactions to it, that was being discussed. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/941 "2021-08-06T13:25:24Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Anarchism is just my attitude towards government, not morality or social justice. It’s a big umbrella that incorporates lots of political leanings, some of them personally abhorrent to me. > And anarchism has been tested, it’s worked pretty well _where it’s been allowed to_ . Where has it been tested? Where has it worked pretty well? > [@MrDibble](#): > > Rubbish. Each owner of a press would be free to censor it exactly as much as they wished, in Libertaria. You’re right. There’d be no government censorship, but there’d be plenty of private. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Did I? I can’t seem to recall saying that, perhaps you could refresh my memory with a quote… Here, where you said harm prevention and reduction of violence are more important than telling the truth: > [@The Ongoing Death of Free Speech: Prominent ACLU Lawyer Cheers Suppression of a New Book](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ongoing-death-of-free-speech-prominent-aclu-lawyer-cheers-suppression-of-a-new-book/925913/219): > > Harm prevention. Reduction of violence. That kind of thing. You know - tangibles. > [@MrDibble](#): > > _Only_ in as much as you seem to consider lawful state response to be “violence”, do I admit that. Did you think this was some sort of gotcha, and that the “also” wasn’t deliberately placed there? What a thicko. Of course I didn’t. I wanted you to clarify. > [@MrDibble](#): > > You were _not_ talking about repressive governments when you posted your bullshit, it was private speech, and private reactions to it, that was being discussed. I was talking about the difference between giving an opinion, and actually discriminating against someone. Like a Christian saying publicly they believe atheists are going to hell, and a Christian firing their employee because the employee said they were an atheist on social media. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/942 "2021-08-06T13:41:41Z")
How about a Christian preaching to an atheist subordinate? What if is happens when they are both eating lunch in the office? How about an anti-abortionist referring to a pro-abortion-rights co-worker as “the baby killer” during a team huddle? What if the men just choose not to listen or respond to any women on the team? Or hey, to bring it back to this board, what if a person uses insulting language on a message board talking to another person with different political opinions? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2021, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/943 "2021-08-06T13:50:21Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > Where has it been tested? Where has it worked pretty well? The original kibbutzes and moshavim, various communes. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Here, where you said harm prevention and reduction of violence are more important than telling the truth: That’s _a_ take on what that quote means, I’ll grant you. A dumb take, disagreeing with you on what the higher calling of the media should be is not the same thing as saying “I would prevent publishing the truth if I thought it would harm someone”. As it happens, I _would_ - for instance, I would certainly prevent publishing the phone number and address of a recent crime victim or celebrity - but that wasn’t what I was saying _there_. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Of course I didn’t. I wanted you to clarify. What part of “I’m a pacifist” wasn’t clear to you? > [@DemonTree](#): > > I was talking about the difference between giving an opinion, and actually discriminating against someone. The bigot who only keeps their bigotry inside is as mythical as the cockatrice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474.md?page=46) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474.md?page=48)