# Let me be real clear: this message board does NOT need conservatives **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 28, 2021, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474 "2021-07-28T02:12:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 56
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2021, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1105 "2021-08-07T13:16:47Z")
I didn’t see the exchange in question but wanted to point out that being black doesn’t entitle one to being an bigoted asshole toward gays, trans, Jews, or other people of color - at least not without facing the social repercussions. There are distinctions to be made between so-called ‘reverse racism’ that is borne out of a valid black anger toward a white society that has fucked them over and over and over again, and which seems content to continue fucking them into perpetuity…and just being a baseline shithead. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2021, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1106 "2021-08-07T14:22:46Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > They use the power of rhetoric to convince the stupid and naive to concede power to the ruthless under the guise of so-called equity and then perverts language to the point where it’s impossible to argue without being demonized. You know, you make it hard to be one of the not-conservatives in here arguing that we _do_ need conservatives at SDMB. 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2021, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1107 "2021-08-07T15:30:39Z")
> [@chela](#): > > Rehashing the same sjw arguments over and over. You have it backwards, the OP is ranting against a particular kind of conservative, the one that argues over and over in favor of Anti-social Injustice Warrior arguments. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2021, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1108 "2021-08-07T16:13:38Z")
> [@chela](#): > > Rehashing the same sjw arguments over and over. Says yet another trock with the obligatory hidden profile (looks like first post circa July 2020, though–a good year for socks apparently). ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2021, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1109 "2021-08-07T16:23:23Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > looks like first post circa July 2020, though–a good year for socks apparently You need to improve your search skills. Here’s one from 2004: > [@The Murid Wars anyone?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-murid-wars-anyone/239810): > > I am reading a book about Shamyl the Avar, a Imam from Daghestan in the Caucasus mountains, who led a twenty year battle against the Russian army in the early 1800’s. He was able to unite warring moslem tribes together under ‘shariat law’ to fight off the imperialistic advances of “Holy Mother Russia”. The book is called Sabres of Paradise by Leslie Branch and I cannot help but see a lot of parallels to what is going on the world today with the war in Iraq. Not comparing USA to Russia, but it i… If she’s a sock, she should get some kind of long service award. 😆 ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2021, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1110 "2021-08-07T16:25:05Z")
It seems to me that trumpy conservatism can’t live here. He has lied too much. It’s against the prime directive here in seeking to end ignorance. No one with an adult perspective can claim there are intellectual defenses for trumpism. So if trumpism = conservatism then it can’t fly. What do the conservatives here do with trumpism if they want to retain intellectual validity? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2021, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1111 "2021-08-07T16:29:15Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > What do the conservatives here do with trumpism if they want to retain intellectual validity? The ones that immediately spring to mind ( **Waldo** , **Sam** , **octopus** , etc…) have consistently criticized it. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2021, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1112 "2021-08-07T16:40:20Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I can be both empathetic and skeptical. What _needs to stop_ is your tedious black & white moral sermonizing. First off, I made a lot of arguments that you ignored. This is a disingenuous way to argue. You need to address full arguments. But, to reply to what you have said: No. You can’t be skeptical of someone and be empathetic towards them. You can’t feel for someone while arguing that they are lying about their feelings. Empathy requires you to put yourself in the place of the other person. And you do not tend to assume your own thoughts are lies. Notice also that **I made an argument** rather than a bare assertion. The latter has no fucking value on a board like this. If you cannot make an argument for your statement, then your statement is useless. It’s just smoke and mirrors with no substance. As the part I didn’t quote (note how I’m addressing it), it doesn’t fucking matter if someone says some nice things and then says horrible things. It is not remotely under debate that @YWTF told someone talking about having been suicidal that suicidal stuff is often fake, and then didn’t take it back when called out. It is also not fucking debatable that her sister came in and defended her. You cannot rewrite reality to fit your own fucking biases. You admitted at the time that you had no knowledge on trans people. But then you keep on acting like you’re some sort of expert who can say what is and is not right. You can’t. You don’t understand the topic, which is why you say absurd things and those of us who do have to correct you. And, finally, when it comes to certain things, it is black and white. Bigotry is wrong. If you argue that a minority is a scary threat to you, you are objectively being bigoted. If you refuse to back down when you are told by the minority in question that you are being bigoted, then you do not care about them. And you don’t get to cry out about sermonizing when you were fucking sermonizing, which is why I responded to you like I did. You tried to say how a trans person is required to feel when they face bigotry. You were a condescending fucking ass about it, so you now get to feel what that’s like. Bigotry is not a hard concept, and I’m not going to back down from defending it no matter how many times people try to paint me as the bad guy. You know you’re being disingenuous to do so. Bigotry will be stopped, no matter how much weaseling you guys do to try and make it okay. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2021, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1113 "2021-08-07T16:46:36Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > > [@drad\_dog](#): > > > > What do the conservatives here do with trumpism if they want to retain intellectual validity? > > The ones that immediately spring to mind ( **Waldo** , **Sam** , **octopus** , etc…) have consistently criticized it. And then attacked the left for saying shit about Trump. Sam, for instance, tried to play off the January 6 attacks as not a coup. He’ll call us out when we attack Trump. octopus kept attacking the BLM protests, while supporting the Trumpian tactics to add more violence. He also, you know, makes the same arguments Trump makes. And he will even sometimes defend Trump just to piss people off. Waldo is the least bad, but he will still sometimes play game on the topic whenever he feels like he’s being attacked. Does that mean they are bad people? No. But pretending they have never used their hatred for all us liberals to pull out Trump shit is disingenuous again. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2021, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1114 "2021-08-07T16:48:42Z")
I get tired of these perpetual fence sitters like @QuickSilver. They go out of their way to attack one side, while going out of their way to assume the best possible interpretation of the other. It’s disingenuous bullshit. You aren’t a better person because you defend the assholes and disingenuous poster. It doesn’t make you more enlightened. It makes you more naive. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2021, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1115 "2021-08-07T16:48:44Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > First off, I made a lot of arguments that you ignored. This is a disingenuous way to argue. You need to address full arguments. I ignored them because they were pedantic and boring. And don’t presume to tell me what I need to address. I address things I consider salient and worth addressing. Which is why I’m ignoring the rest of your Sermon from the Mouth. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2021, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1116 "2021-08-07T16:48:49Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > > [@drad\_dog](#): > > > > What do the conservatives here do with trumpism if they want to retain intellectual validity? > > The ones that immediately spring to mind ( **Waldo** , **Sam** , **octopus** , etc…) have consistently criticized it. The latter 2 have only occasionally criticized it, and very frequently defended it. By my memory, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2021, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1117 "2021-08-07T16:49:47Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > > [@BigT](#): > > > > First off, I made a lot of arguments that you ignored. This is a disingenuous way to argue. You need to address full arguments. > > I ignored them because they were pedantic and boring. And don’t presume to tell me what I need to address. I address things I consider salient and worth addressing. Which is why I’m ignoring the rest of your Sermon from the Mouth. “I attack people because I can’t prove their arguments wrong.” I can tell you what you need to cover to actually prove someone wrong. It’s just basic reality of how it works. The fact that you are a disingenuous debater is now noted, and means the board would be better off with you. ## And, again You are being a sermonizer too, so you don’t actually think it is wrong. More disingenuous bullshit. You know it’s something people say about me, so you say it to try and irritate me. You lack any introspection, or I wouldn’t have to keep telling you this obvious shit. ---
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2021, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1118 "2021-08-07T16:58:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Sure, @asahi gets emotional, and sometimes says stupid things. But he’s not disingenuous. He doesn’t deny science and facts. He doesn’t act like dismissing bad science and false facts is somehow an attack on freedom of speech. He doesn’t push talking point narratives from his preferred media. In fact, he often takes a position that is out of step with the media, and has to be told why it’s dumb. I think this is a fair summing up of the poster (who’s getting one major fucking wrist slap, btw, for not making it “really” in the thread title). A number of folks have been dumping on him in this thread about the re-education camp stuff, which I’m pretty sure he has completely repudiated. Thankfully. 🙂 No clue as to why he, himself, didn’t bother to set that particular record straight. > [@octopus](#): > > Orwellian left 🤣 > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I was talking about the bubble here that accepts at face value every piece of glurge that comes out a Democrat’s mouth, while assuming everything a Republican says is a lie or stupid. You’ve been here, what - yay long - and haven’t seen {{{scads}}} of all those nasty bolshevists and socialists, here, absolutely _tearing_ into each other, and not just in the pit, or over political stuff, but sometimes in CS and GR? > [@DemonTree](#): > > As for the alt-right, I hardly think they are the only ones engaging in disingenuous argument Sure, as I’m sure there are lefties who listen to Perry Como or 5 Neat Guys, or are experts at blind-folded cat’s cradle. Not sure if I’m content enough with **Sam Stone** not _quite_ fully walking back his “good conservative = Tea Party” bonbon. …er, well, ok then, I _spose_: > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Y’know, I should have used the word ‘comparatively’. The Tea Party wasn’t my cup of Tea either. I keep lazily calling myself ‘conservative’, but I’m not. And I’m damned sure not a populist. The only things I really agreed with them on were economic conservatism and the need for a robust military. But I am pro-LGBT, pro trans rights, pro drug legalization. Socially I’m a classical liberal. Wouldn’t that qualify you as Libertarian? > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Palin would have had the same power as any other Vice President - almost none. And frankly, Kamala Harris is worse. Um, no. Ole Alaksa Hot-Legs would’ve been an effectively more cray-cray-pants VP than Harris currently is. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > While I disagree with [**Demon Tree**] about some positions, I just don’t know how she can be reasonably accused of being illiberal or bigoted based on the opinions I’ve seen expressed to date. How about troll? > [@drad\_dog](#): > > The righties here have to reckon with the fact that their national presence is limited to the function of anti democratic party trolls. They need to admit it here, instead of the 90% whining about not being heard whining. Just listen to yourselves. > > If you are only reflexively responding by hating another party or hating “progress” or whatever it may be, then you aren’t necessary at all. You’re position could be performed by a robot and many many times now it is. A Robot. You can see it in many comments forums. > > A strictly “knee jerk” party has lost it’s rhetoric and is just in it for the lolz. They aren’t necessary even if you want to address their issues. It is easier without them trolling. And they gain because then they wont humiliate themselves. Liberals give a much better reading of conservatives than they are capable of themselves They have only one actual position at a time. Historically it’s Anti-Clinton. Now it’s anti democracy. Heh, not bad. I’ll give that a 9.2. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > …you neutron star dense nattering nabob. Yeah, also not too bad either. > [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > Question: How the fuck isn’t there a band called Strychnine? Answer: German hardcore band: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRZ9N5HCYEk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRZ9N5HCYEk) (? why didn’t it automatically load?) Don’t know if I’ve ever come across a thread where the word “if” played such a prominent role in misunderstandings, here. This “hive” shit…mentioned it before elsewhere, and it was crickets, so I’ll broach it _one more fucking time_: name me a less hivey place. Sure: retarded = bad; stupid and moron = ok. Reasons have already been explained why (heh - in case I’m asked for cites). ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2021, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1119 "2021-08-07T17:00:42Z")
That’s not enough. It needs to be reckoned with as part of their world view that metastasized into toxicity. Without insight into this the cons will only be able to troll, and seek to gain power without earning it. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2021, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1120 "2021-08-07T17:00:54Z")
I agree that they defended aspects of Trump policies. Does that make them “Trumpists”, per the post to which I replied? Perhaps it’s open to argument that they are Trumpist-lite. I hadn’t considered that possibility when I replied. I had actual Trump supporters that were occasional contributors to these boards in mind. I don’t think any of them remain. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2021, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1121 "2021-08-07T17:04:04Z")
Exactly. That is trolling. Conservatives need to be intellectually honest and that begins with their own back yard and their own trump fixations and similarities. They have to do that first, in public, to admit that this thing went sideways in a very bad way, to gain intellectual credibility again after the last 5 years. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2021, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1122 "2021-08-07T17:11:38Z")
It’s way long past time that conservatives self identify as to what they stand for in their posts. You can’t stand for “anti anti trump.” That is not a real position for an adult. Everyone here is over 18. Got to get over it and post reality about who you are in the world. Or at least stop bitching whinging and griping about your fee fees not being heard. What the hell is there left to hear about how you refuse to take the intellectual positions that you want to defend. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2021, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1123 "2021-08-07T17:22:48Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > It needs to be reckoned with as part of their world view that metastasized into toxicity. I get what you’re saying but it seems to me that the right-wing world view existed pre-Trump. Trump’s rise was a result of that already established world view. Trump exploited it. Became its poster child. We’re now using Trumpism as shorthand for everything conservative. As you said earlier: > [@drad\_dog](#): > > What do the conservatives here do with trumpism if they want to retain intellectual validity? It is worth reminding ourselves from time to time that some conservatives - Lincoln Project comes to mind - stood in vocal and highly critical opposition to Trumpism. Still do, if I’m not mistaken. I don’t know if conservatives on this board are credited with being Lincoln Project type conservatives. Perhaps they do not deserve to be. I just know that I don’t hear much acknowledgement of that from progressives. I don’t know how much I have in common with Lincoln Project style conservatives. I just note that there are some that are not Trumpist. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2021, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1124 "2021-08-07T17:32:54Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I agree that they defended aspects of Trump policies. Does that make them “Trumpists”, per the post to which I replied? Perhaps it’s open to argument that they are Trumpist-lite. I hadn’t considered that possibility when I replied. > > I had actual Trump supporters that were occasional contributors to these boards in mind. I don’t think any of them remain. Okay, they’re somewhere in between, perhaps. They’ve both argued, IIRC, that Trump and his administration have not in fact violated norms and even laws any more than Democrats and liberals have, and that Democrats are largely to blame for the excesses of Trump and Trumpism (i.e. that the election of someone like Trump was an inevitable and even partially justifiable backlash to the sins of Democrats and liberals). That’s utter fact free, rationality free, bullshit, and such arguments offer nothing to the board. I’ll look for some cites when I’m able. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474.md?page=55) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474.md?page=57)