# Let me be real clear: this message board does NOT need conservatives **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 28, 2021, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474 "2021-07-28T02:12:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 82
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1626 "2021-08-18T02:29:11Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > {…} you’re living in a fool’s paradise {…} Singalong time?! [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Dmx5sLusykY/hqdefault.jpg "The Beatles- Octopus's Garden animation") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmx5sLusykY) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1627 "2021-08-18T02:32:31Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Scientific determinists will point out that Schrödinger’s equation for the wave function is deterministic, and the entire universe is one giant wave function, so the universe is by definition deterministic. So-called “scientific determinism”, or nomological determinism, is indeed an existing philosophical viewpoint, but it doesn’t contradict my remark that physicists consider it highly unlikely that the physical universe is 100% deterministic. Even if there are some physicists who fully endorse an extreme form of nomological determinism (I don’t happen to know of any) holding that the physical universe is entirely deterministic, that would still not affect the question of whether transgender identity is real. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1628 "2021-08-18T02:36:20Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > That’s because moral systems are not objective. Which is exactly what I said in post #1616. Personal beliefs, or moral systems, may be consistent with objective reality, but they don’t necessarily have objective truth values. And your position that transgender identity isn’t real is part of a subjective moral system, not of objective scientific fact. So, as I said, when you try to claim (or insinuate) that your criticism of transgender-rights advocacy is based on science, you are objectively scientifically wrong. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1629 "2021-08-18T02:40:18Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > There’s a difference between a woke SJW and someone on the left. Then kindly explain. Who are these people? Who are the totally “on the left” people who are not to be parodied as “woke SJW” people? Because you say you’re “not a conservative,” and yet you seem to have bought into a lot of conservative memes, to the point where I must conclude you are either LYING, VERY CONFUSED about where you fit on the political spectrum, or maybe just an idiot who doesn’t realize the memes he’s bought into aren’t an accurate representation of any actual political faction in the US. > [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > There’s a difference between a woke SJW and someone on the left. Believe it or not, _I’m_ on the left for a number of pretty significant social issues, including universal healthacare, universal basic income, same-sex marriage, drug legalisation and refugee support. The difference is, I don’t _hate_ people who don’t support those things, I don’t think they’re horrible people, and I don’t go around banging on constantly about how everyone needs to get on board with the stuff I mentioned before. This from the guy who laments how “woke SJWs” are too emotional. You don’t hate bigots, or even think they’re “horrible” people. But those “woke SJWs” you keep seeing in memes from the alt-right? Yeah, fuck those guys, right? Christ, you are deluded. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1630 "2021-08-18T03:06:08Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Now, if we want to encourage political violence I don’t think any of us will like where that leads. From Julian Carr’s speech at the dedication of the “Silent Sam” pro-confederacy statue at UNC-Chapel Hill in 1913: > [@](#): > > I trust I may be pardoned for one allusion, howbeit it is rather personal. One hundred yards from where we stand, less than ninety days perhaps after my return from Appomattox, I horse-whipped a negro wench until her skirts hung in shreds, because upon the streets of this quiet village she had publicly insulted and maligned a Southern lady, and then rushed for protection to these University buildings where was stationed a garrison of 100 Federal soldiers. I performed the pleasing duty in the immediate presence of the entire garrison, and for thirty nights afterwards slept with a double-barrel shot gun under my head. Taking the statues down is precisely because we want to condemn political violence. Our nation has no greater monument to political violence, no greater encouragement of political violence, than the distributed works of the Daughters of the Confederacy. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1631 "2021-08-18T03:34:26Z")
Here’s a thought for you, @ASL_v2.0 - people have political views that don’t fit into neat boxes. Also, let me type this very slowly for you since you’re apparently having trouble reading: I. AM. NOT. AMERICAN. I am not talking about American political factions when I refer to woke SJW types. We have politics and SJWS in other countries. > [@How should the Pit be changed, if at all?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-should-the-pit-be-changed-if-at-all/946859/666): > > It possible that people on the left can be afflicted with (and inflict on others) nasty bigoted ideas, and can be criticized for them just like people on the right? They’re not criticised for them here though (or not nearly to the same extent) - they’re generally lauded for having the “correct” opinions. Seriously, this entire thread is basically telling people with the “wrong” political stance (in the OPs eyes) to fuck off from the boards. I gather (but may have misread) that at least one long-time poster here has finally had enough of the double standard and abuse and left. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1632 "2021-08-18T03:35:47Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > They’re not criticised for them here though (or not nearly to the same extent) - they’re generally lauded for having the “correct” opinions. That’s, uh, that’s really not what I see happening. Didn’t happen with Slacker, didn’t happen with monstro or ywtf, doesn’t happen currently with folks who claim to be liberal or leftist but who say nasty bigoted shit. The claim is in general false. > [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Seriously, this entire thread is basically telling people with the “wrong” political stance (in the OPs eyes) to fuck off from the boards. No, the OP is doing that, and a shitload of other people are telling the OP to fuck off. Did you even read this thread? That said, I’m happy to tell people with the “wrong” political stance–that is, neoNazism–to fuck off. That’s at one end of the spectrum. I’m also happy to tell Klansfolk to fuck off, and others with similarly terrible views. Do you have a problem with telling people with the wrong political stance to fuck off? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1633 "2021-08-18T03:43:30Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Seriously, this entire thread is basically telling people with the “wrong” political stance (in the OPs eyes) to fuck off from the boards. Um, with the significant caveat [“if they are committed to anti-intellectualism and deliberately undermining good faith discussion”](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474). ISTM that that’s a reasonable and fair position to hold on a messageboard with a stated mission of fighting ignorance. It’s not that rational people can’t validly disagree about ideological issues. It’s that so much of the modern right wing has committed itself to ideological positions that can’t be defended rationally. So instead they’ve gone all in on lies, logical fallacies, and other irrational forms of dispute. I object to the thread title’s conflating that behavior with the entire category of “conservatives”, but rejecting that behavior itself is perfectly fine. And to be fair, if rational conservatives don’t like the close association between the term “conservative” and massive irrationality, dishonesty and bad faith, they need to put in some work cleaning their own house rather than just whining that liberals aren’t being nice to them. Far too many self-identified conservatives these days are a disgrace to the entire concept of rational conservatism. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1634 "2021-08-18T04:44:40Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > I. AM. NOT. AMERICAN. In what sense do you think that forestalls the possibility of being a conservative? ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1635 "2021-08-18T05:59:06Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > In what sense do you think that forestalls the possibility of being a conservative? That “Conservative” means different things in our respective political systems, for a start, along with the fact that what I’ve seen of US Conservatism involves a lot of stuff I’ve explicitly said I’m not supportive of/in favour of. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Do you have a problem with telling people with the wrong political stance to fuck off? Broadly? Yes. I might tell them I disagree, I might tell them I really don’t like their views and don’t think they’re very nice or that I think they’re wrong, I might ignore them. What I’m unlikely to do is straight up tell them to fuck off, or abuse them, or really lay into them. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1636 "2021-08-18T06:31:56Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Yes. I might tell them I disagree, I might tell them I really don’t like their views and don’t think they’re very nice or that I think they’re wrong, I might ignore them. What I’m unlikely to do is straight up tell them to fuck off, or abuse them, or really lay into them. What will you do if somebody from one of the groups they want to oppress and abuse is standing right there hearing what you say to them? I mean, it’s comparatively easy for those of us who aren’t the direct targets of malevolent bigots’ bigotry to treat the bigots with forbearance or tolerate their presence. But we’re indulging that forbearance kind of at the expense of the bigots’ intended targets. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1637 "2021-08-18T06:51:27Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > What will you do if somebody from one of the groups they want to oppress and abuse is standing right there hearing what you say to them? Depends what’s being said, whether it’s directed at a specific person or just a general comment, and how likely I am to get harmed in some way for getting involved. For most “everyday” casual “-ism” stuff, a “Come on, that’s not cool, knock it off” is probably on the cards. As much as we’d all like to pretend we’d march right up to that Biker Klansman and point our finger at him and say “Take your disgusting views and fuck off, you vile piece of bigoted pond scum! I will not abide your foulness a moment longer!” then bask in adulation as the chastened offender slinks off while everyone in the cafe applauds, that’s not really how these things tend to work in the real world for people who aren’t SDMB posters. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1638 "2021-08-18T06:59:56Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > As much as we’d all like to pretend we’d march right up to that Biker Klansman and point our finger at him and say “Take your disgusting views and fuck off, you vile piece of bigoted pond scum! I will not abide your foulness a moment longer!” then bask in adulation as the chastened offender slinks off while everyone in the cafe applauds, that’s not really how these things tend to work in the real world for people who aren’t SDMB posters. But what we’re talking about here is our behavior as SDMB posters. Nobody’s demanding that you go marching up to any Biker Klansman in the physical real world. Here on the SDMB is where the intended targets of vile bigoted pond scum are right in the room participating in the interactions. Shouldn’t we have the courage to tell their vile bigoted pond scum abusers to fuck off, given the comparative safety of the anonymous messageboard environment? ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1639 "2021-08-18T07:26:09Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Shouldn’t we have the courage to tell their vile bigoted pond scum abusers to fuck off, given the comparative safety of the anonymous messageboard environment? Nope. I refer you to my earlier comment - "_I might tell them I disagree, I might tell them I really don’t like their views and don’t think they’re very nice or that I think they’re wrong, I might ignore them. What I’m unlikely to do is straight up tell them to fuck off, or abuse them, or really lay into them."_ ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1640 "2021-08-18T07:31:10Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > And while all material objects are indeed subject to physical law, how is that relevant to issues like gender identity and other perceptual/cognitive states? Does “physical law” determine whether or not you love your wife, for example? If so, through exactly what specific physical mechanism is that determination operating? Of course it does. Your brain is part of the universe and is governed by the same laws as everything else. WTF do you think determines it, your immortal soul? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1641 "2021-08-18T07:42:09Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > I’m not American, and am not “Conservative” in the American sense of the word. Can you get much more conservative than a wannabe Imperialist? You just venerate a different historic White supremacy system from the Lost Cause assholes, is all. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1642 "2021-08-18T07:50:56Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > that’s not really how these things tend to work in the real world for people who aren’t SDMB posters. Fuck off. Spoken like someone who has never bled for their freedoms. I marched against the Apartheid police and army, you think some racist in a cafe is going to intimidate me into silence, never mind some internet troll? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1643 "2021-08-18T08:13:01Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > > [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > > > Yes. I might tell them I disagree, I might tell them I really don’t like their views and don’t think they’re very nice or that I think they’re wrong, I might ignore them. What I’m unlikely to do is straight up tell them to fuck off, or abuse them, or really lay into them. > > What will you do if somebody from one of the groups they want to oppress and abuse is standing right there hearing what you say to them? > > I mean, it’s comparatively easy for those of us who aren’t the direct targets of malevolent bigots’ bigotry to treat the bigots with forbearance or tolerate their presence. But we’re indulging that forbearance kind of at the expense of the bigots’ intended targets. What can you do when pretty much everyone on the board agrees with the bigotry? Here’s an example from yesterday: > [@Nietzsche and the American Right](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/nietzsche-and-the-american-right/948726/15): > > Certainly the right believes they are superior But WHY? It is because, in their eyes, they suffer like a good moral person should. > > The right CLAIMS to value relationships more, but I’ve observed that they actually don’t. As “Hate lives in a small town” by Aurelio Voltaire says: > “When you’re heading to a small town, they’re as nice as can be But then at night they put on sheets and hang your sad ass from a tree!” > > Right-wingers love small towns because they don’t have the social skills to live in a close-packed community like an apartment complex. I can’t tell you how many conversations I’ve had with conservatives when they go on about how much they hate big cities because they can’t deal with all the people. They have constant fantasies about going off and living in the mountains (which they often turn into reality) because they can’t stand being close to other people. We know that conservatives cannot get along with anyone with even slightly different beliefs. > > The conservatives I’ve known will go ON and ON and ON about how much they love their family. But the instant one family member exposes that they’ve been abused by another, the family will turn on the abusee and defend the abuser faster than you can blink. > > Conseratives don’t value relationships. They value a heard that they can hide in, like zerbras. According to this poster conservatives have poor social skills, they don’t value relationships, they are dumb, they are poor - and that’s their own fault (that bit was in an earlier post). This poster was not pitted, or even really criticised in the thread, for spouting gross stereotypes about an entire group of people. I was going to reply, but I’m tired of being attacked myself… what’s the point when everyone agrees with them? ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1644 "2021-08-18T08:34:22Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > I don’t want to get into a lengthy debate about origins. Those articles seem interesting and do make the lab leak seem a little more probable. I’m still going with natural origin, though I’m not as confident as I was. > > My main point is that Octopus was making fun of “the woke hive mind” or whatever insult he’s thinking of for thinking animal origin is at all possible. There’s no way to know for sure at this point. I don’t agree with Octopus on that, but I do think it is unreasonable to dismiss the idea that the virus escaped from the lab when there are many previous incidents of viruses escaping, and I think it’s pretty shocking that traditional and social media complied in suppressing the idea for political reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2021, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474/1645 "2021-08-18T08:39:16Z")
I just don’t see how knowing that the virus escaped from a lab helps us stop the pandemic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474.md?page=81) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-be-real-clear-this-message-board-does-not-need-conservatives/947474.md?page=83)