Let me be real clear: this message board does NOT need conservatives

[Ann_Hedonia]

As a free speech advocate, I agree.

But I am under absolutely no obligation, as a private citizen, to listen to this person or treat his views with respect. I’m free to shun this person and urge other private citizens to do the same. I’m free to urge private companies to deny him a platform for his views and if I own A private company that provides a platform for speech, I’m free to deny him access to that platform.

He has a right to speak. He can stand on a street corner spouting his drivel, and I won’t hit him with my car. But he’s not entitled to a megaphone.

But I maintain that free speech ONLY applies to government interference with speech. I don’t think it has anything at all to do with the private consequences of speech. I don’t think the intent of free speech laws is as much about encouraging speech as it is about limiting government.

I don’t think you should be arrested for your hate speech, but only because I don’t think it’s the job of government. I think you should be liable for the societal consequences of your speech.

If you lose your job for spouting hateful drivel, I don’t care. If your wife leaves you and your children cut you off because you espouse hateful drivel, good.

I think some of the conservatives of this board make positive contributions and there are others that are a waste of electrons. I also feel the same way about the liberals on the board. There are people of both political stripes that Frankly, I don’t buy the whole “this board is mean to conservatives” line. I don’t buy the whole “this world is mean to conservatives” line.

Yes, Twitter deplatformed Trump and a whole bunch of conservatives. You know who else they deplatformed? Me. Me and a whole bunch of my liberal friends. A whole bunch of us had our accounts permanently suspended. After January 6th, a half dozen Facebook groups I was active on (liberal political humor groups) disappeared, and my liberal friends are constantly in and out of Facebook “jail”.

We just don’t whine and throw tantrums about it, because we know we broke the rules and we know how to accept consequences. Plus, as a liberal I’ve spent my entire life listening to conservative people call me (or people like me) horrible names. I just ignore them. I don’t care what they think. This is why I think there’s a certain degree of disingenuousness in all the “you called me a bigot ……wah wah wah “ whining I hear from certain conservatives. It’s the fake victimization of the abuser, the guy who screams “Stop hitting me” as he beats his wife.

I will say that one think I like about the SDMB is that it is a liberal board, and a good place to discuss the nuances of liberal positions. The conservatives may not get that……they may think those threads are nothing but liberal groupthink ORANGE MAN BAD” har har har……but there are nuances to those conversations ….how bad is the orange man, why, is his corrupt pandering to Saudi Arabia worse than his deep involvement with Eastern European corruption……etc. I like discussing such things and I’m not interested in adding troll shit to the conversation.

Now, I’m sure there are conservative nuances that I would miss in a pro-Trump thread……some of his supporters think may his balls are his tastiest feature and others prefer the piquancy of his asshole. Some supporters may like it when he reams them vigorously from behind while others might prefer giving him a gentle blowjob. I would not participate in such a thread, and if I did it would not be in good faith.

I just want to repeat that I think many, if not most of the conservatives on this board make positive contributions, even if I disagree with them. I have no problem with them, only the handful that I think are trolling.

[Babale]

@Saintly_Loser

but by expressing an opinion (for example, on same-sex marriage or gay people in general) that will anger the hearers to the point where they commit violence, probably against the speaker, or his followers.

I think it’s a far bigger worry that homophobic preachers will inspire their followers to do violence against homosexual people than the other way around.

[Babale]

@DemonTree

Almost certainly @asahi did not mean to restrict his statement to speech inciting violence, but was calling for a much woollier standard to be applied, with laws banning hate speech.

The reason to ban hate speech is that it incites violence against the people the hate speech targets, not to protect the bigots from retribution.

[Saintly_Loser]

@Babale

I think it’s a far bigger worry that homophobic preachers will inspire their followers to do violence against homosexual people than the other way around.

Well, sure, but that’s kind of dodging the question.

[Novelty_Bobble]

@DemonTree

Almost certainly @asahi did not mean to restrict his statement to speech inciting violence, but was calling for a much woollier standard to be applied, with laws banning hate speech.

I think it is already difficult to police to the former category. The further we drift from even that rather ambiguous standard the more concerned I become about freedom of speech.

I’d be interested in Asahi coming back to explain further.

[Novelty_Bobble]

@Babale

The reason to ban hate speech is that it incites violence against the people the hate speech targets

How does it do that without it being a direct incitement? Honest question, can you give an example?

[Bullitt]

@IvoryTowerDenizen

I think the thesis in the OP has been sufficiently proven.

But is that a good thing?

[Babale]

@Novelty_Bobble

@Babale

The reason to ban hate speech is that it incites violence against the people the hate speech targets

How does it do that without it being a direct incitement? Honest question, can you give an example?

If you normalize hatred against a group and dehumanizing them, you allow all kinds of atrocities to take place.

I don’t think hate speech that doesn’t clearly incite violence should be illegal; but if any private enterprise wants to ban it, I will applaud them for it, and will vote with my wallet by avoiding businesses that don’t take a stand against hate speech. Capitalism at work.

[GIGObuster]

@DemonTree

The point you continue to miss is that they are not my side . Almost no one on this board thinks of those people as their side, or believes they can do anything about them. Much less by posting here, where there are none of them available to debate or persuade.

So says the one that on the CRT thread cited an illogical writer that posted stupid arguments against CRT, then after me and others showed how that writer was a big liar, you never came back to acknowledge how badly you are at identifying good or bad sources.

Face it, most of the criticism to ideas that in these days seem to be from the left (when they are not really) that some posters, that claim to be moderate or leftist, do to skeptical and fact-checking people in the SDMB are also influenced by grossly wrong arguments that come also from the way the right wing frames the discussion. In essence, you did spread ignorance there.

[DemonTree]

@Ann_Hedonia

I will say that one think I like about the SDMB is that it is a liberal board, and a good place to discuss the nuances of liberal positions. The conservatives may not get that……they may think those threads are nothing but liberal groupthink ORANGE MAN BAD” har har har……but there are nuances to those conversations ….how bad is the orange man, why, is his corrupt pandering to Saudi Arabia worse than his deep involvement with Eastern European corruption……etc. I like discussing such things and I’m not interested in adding troll shit to the conversation.

I have no problem at all with those threads. The ones I dislike and believe contribute to spreading ignorance rather than fighting it are the ones asking what conservatives think, or why people vote for Trump, or any other question which left-wingers are inherently unqualified to give a useful answer to - and yet such threads always attract a chorus of inane and offensive (in @puzzlegal’s tarring of whole groups sense) speculation. Mostly they turn into a circle jerk of people confirming each others misconceptions and prejudices.

@Ann_Hedonia

Yes, Twitter deplatformed Trump and a whole bunch of conservatives. You know who else they deplatformed? Me. Me and a whole bunch of my liberal friends. A whole bunch of us had our accounts permanently suspended. After January 6th, a half dozen Facebook groups I was active on (liberal political humor groups) disappeared, and my liberal friends are constantly in and out of Facebook “jail”.

What rule did you break?

[DemonTree]

@Novelty_Bobble

I think it is already difficult to police to the former category. The further we drift from even that rather ambiguous standard the more concerned I become about freedom of speech.

I’d be interested in Asahi coming back to explain further.

I think we should repeal the hate speech laws. I used to believe the SNP were doing a pretty good job, but now seeing what they think of free speech I’m glad I don’t live in Scotland. I’d say the UK would be better off with a constitution, but the chances the government would allow anything remotely like the US 1st amendment is nil.

As for @asahi, I suspect his flouncing indicates he has nothing useful to say.

[ZosterSandstorm]

@GIGObuster

So says the one that on the CRT thread cited an illogical writer that posted stupid arguments against CRT, then after me and others showed how that writer was a big liar, you never came back to acknowledge how badly you are at identifying good or bad sources.

You’re doing it again! You’re responding to “I am not on the antivax side and have no burden to defend antivax people” with “you must agree with them because you criticized CRT and are therefore A Conservative.”

Again! After admitting it, and denying it, and watching other people deny you do it, you’re doing it AGAIN in this very thread!

[carrps]

@thorny_locust

– And at that point I found myself in danger of writing a book. And I haven’t time to do that now. But I will say two things:

one is that there’s nothing new about this problem, there are only people who thought there was no problem when it was others being restricted to keep them happy and who therefore think it’s a new problem when those restrictions are lifted;

and the other is that nobody significant is saying that anyone must enter into a same sex marriage, or that any church/synagogue/temple/etc/etc congregation must celebrate one. What the society is now saying is that those who think it’s evil can’t prevent those who think it’s holy from entering into and/or celebrating; and can’t prevent them from then using the ordinary secular structures of trade. And it’s not solely or even primarily a matter of religious versus secular: there are plenty of religious people and of congregations who do think it’s holy, as well as some non-religious people who would be happier with a world in which people only did things that they themselves want to do, or need to have done.

I’m a bit behind, but I just wanted to say that you described this extremely well. I don’t know how anyone can willfully misunderstand it.

[GIGObuster]

@ZosterSandstorm

You’re doing it again! You’re responding to “I am not on the antivax side and have no burden to defend antivax people” with “you must agree with them because you criticized CRT and are therefore A Conservative.”

Again! After admitting it, and denying it, and watching other people deny you do it, you’re doing it AGAIN in this very thread!

So says the one that thinks that me pointing at what many conservatives are doing in general, is insulting to him, who is “not a right winger”.

Curiouser and curiouser.

[Babale]

@ZosterSandstorm

You’re doing it again! You’re responding to “I am not on the antivax side and have no burden to defend antivax people” with “you must agree with them because you criticized CRT and are therefore A Conservative.”

“They are not on my side, I just quote them all the time because they represent my beliefs” is not as ironclad an argument as you seem to think it is.

[ZosterSandstorm]

@Babale

“They are not on my side, I just quote them all the time because they represent my beliefs” is not as ironclad an argument as you seem to think it is.

Who here has ever quoted an antivaxer as “representing their beliefs?” You’re as incapable of making one post relying on “facts” and “good faith” as the semi-literate shitbag GIGO.

[Babale]

@GIGObuster

One of my ongoing points, that you continue to miss, is that there is a machinery that is turning a lot of conspiracies that in the recent past had nothing to do with partisanship into weaponized litmus tests by the right wing. Anti vaccination is the latest example that the right wing in America has started to grab onto. The problem for many conservatives (and the ones that claim to be moderate or liberal) that are opposed to the conservative movement adding more anti-intelectual positions in their big tent, is that by trying to avoid dealing with what most of their side is doing, they are allowing things to get worse thanks to their inaction.

Seems pretty clear that he’s talking about the right’s alleged campaign of disinformation in all forms it takes, of which anti-vax is only the latest iteration.

@DemonTree

The point you continue to miss is that they are not my side .

DemonTree claims that “these people” (the Right’s campaign of disinformation in all forms it takes, remember) are not on her side.

GIGO points out that she has quoted members of, and I quote, the “machinery that is turning a lot of conspiracies that in the recent past had nothing to do with partisanship into weaponized litmus tests by the right wing”.

@GIGObuster

So says the one that on the CRT thread cited an illogical writer that posted stupid arguments against CRT, then after me and others showed how that writer was a big liar, you never came back to acknowledge how badly you are at identifying good or bad sources.

Fact is, YOU are the one who insists on limiting what GIGO is talking about to anti-vax, when in fact he is talking about a whole slew of anti-intelectual conspiracy theories pandered to by the Right.

This all seems pretty clear from reading his posts; the fact you missed this seems to make it pretty clear that you are a

@ZosterSandstorm

semi-literate shitbag

[DemonTree]

@Babale

I don’t think hate speech that doesn’t clearly incite violence should be illegal; but if any private enterprise wants to ban it, I will applaud them for it, and will vote with my wallet by avoiding businesses that don’t take a stand against hate speech. Capitalism at work.

What do you think of the BDS controversy?

[Babale]

@ZosterSandstorm

Who here has ever quoted an antivaxer as “representing their beliefs?

Tl,Dr of my prior post: GIGO isn’t claiming you’re an antivaxer, so you can stop beating off on that strawman.

[Babale]

@DemonTree

What do you think of the BDS controversy?

I’m an incredibly fragile conservative snowflake so I got really upset and threw a tantrum over how mean those people are being to my country.

No, wait, that’s not it at all. I really didn’t care about a manufactured non-issue. Some people don’t like Israel and want to boycott it. Cool. Some Israelis still don’t like Germany and boycott German products. Some people boycott products that come from Arab countries. People are entitled to their opinion; I happen to think their opinion is wrong, but so what?

And look, are there radicals who don’t believe in Israel’s right to exist at all who attach themselves to those sorts of movements? Sure. Is that something worth getting particularly worked up over? Not really.