# Let me explain away all your Buffy plot holes! \*Spoilers Obviously\* **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 20, 2004, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-explain-away-all-your-buffy-plot-holes-spoilers-obviously/275870 "2004-11-20T21:34:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-explain-away-all-your-buffy-plot-holes-spoilers-obviously/275870/21 "2004-11-21T01:50:22Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > No, he was utterly pathetic as a human, from all external evidence. So was Angel, because there was never any reason in their lives for them to be other than totally pathetic. However, my theory is that if circumstances had been different for them, they would have shown themselves to be great men. Perhaps if, after being rejected by Cecily, William had joined the Foreign Legion in a fit of romantic pique, he would, I think, have discovered that he was a lot stronger and braver than he had ever thought. But nothing in his life had ever required him to be particularly brave or strong, and so he never manifested any of those traits until after he was vamped. I was reading your post to mean that he was a wolf in sheep’s clothing, so to speak… that he had some talents or abilities that just weren’t apparent from passing him on the street. Similar to someone seeing Bruce Lee and thinking he was just some skinny, short guy. Thanks for the clarification. ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-explain-away-all-your-buffy-plot-holes-spoilers-obviously/275870/22 "2004-11-21T01:53:54Z")
I’m also not on board with the OP’s explanation of vampire strength. It’s definitely an age thing. Recall what Giles says about Kakistos: he’s so old that he has cloven hooves (and it takes a huge stake to dust him). I don’t think there’s any doubt that age has a lot to do with how powerful a vampire is. That also explains why Spike, Angel, etc. are more powerful than the ones Xander can dust: most vampires simply don’t live long enough to get that strong. And the Spike killing a Slayer at a young age thing isn’t really a problem. He only managed to kill her out of sheer dumb luck (if that bomb hadn’t gone off he would’ve been dust). I also disagree with Miller that vampires retain vestiges of their old souls. It just seems unecessary to me if you already grant that they retain hobbies, interests, personalities, and whatever from when they were human. ---
**Author:** ![ThatGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e5b9ba/32.png) [@ThatGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThatGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-explain-away-all-your-buffy-plot-holes-spoilers-obviously/275870/23 "2004-11-21T02:00:53Z")
I still don’t see what’s so radical about the notion that the master of all vampires can sire a more powerfull than normal vamp. But i concede, maybe we should move on to other issues 😉 Were my explanations of the ubervamps and the “thought you would be taller” line satisfactory? ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-explain-away-all-your-buffy-plot-holes-spoilers-obviously/275870/24 "2004-11-21T02:05:45Z")
I don’t have a particular plot hole to point out for fanwanking, but I must point out that William was _not_ a bad poet. He was a poet two centuries ahead of his time. Oh wait, here’s a plot hole. In S1 Buffy had a pager. But in S4 when she was given a pager by the Initiative she didn’t have one. Why, especially considering her occupation, would she make herself less get-ahold-of-able? ---
**Author:** ![ThatGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e5b9ba/32.png) [@ThatGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThatGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-explain-away-all-your-buffy-plot-holes-spoilers-obviously/275870/25 "2004-11-21T02:11:39Z")
Now that’s a good one, it’s entirely possible the she lost/broke the pager(She was but a irresponsible 16 year old at the time). Also something tells me that Buffy doesn’t really want that kind of accesability…She is somewhat a loner on patrols and such, she is often annoyed when the more vulnerable scoobs want to accompany her to a more dangerous place. She often shows irritation at Giles overbooking her duties when she would rather just hang out at the Bronze or patrol in her own way. I just don’t see Buffy feeling an urgent need to replace the pager, they are pretty pointless now in the age of cell phones anyway…arn’t they? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-explain-away-all-your-buffy-plot-holes-spoilers-obviously/275870/26 "2004-11-21T03:06:35Z")
> [@ThatGuy](#): > > Those are some great ideas Miller, but i have a hard time accepting a soul as anything but a “you have one or you don’t” thing. I took the Judge’s power not so much as a way to identify those with remnants of “good” or “souls”, but to weed out those who have DESIRES that could be considered human in nature. For instance the bookworm vamp with the glasses desired knowledge( because i’m sure he did in his human life), any self respecting evil being should not desire knowledge…it should desire power. Spike desired Love…again not something evil in nature and certainly “reeks of humanity”. Make any kind of sense? I guess it comes down to what you think a “soul” is. All those things you list I would ascribe to having a soul. Plus, I would consider the desire for power to be a completely human desire. As would Angelus’ desire to inflict cruelty on other people, for that matter. Nor would I consider a desire for knowledge to be in conflict with an evil disposition. Else, whence the world’s mad scientists? On the other hand, I’m on board with you on tallness, pagers, ubervamps, and vampire strength. The latter could easily work both ways: the older a vampire gets, the stronger he gets _and_ the stronger the vampires he sires start out. ---
**Author:** ![VampyChick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/5daacb/32.png) [@VampyChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VampyChick)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-explain-away-all-your-buffy-plot-holes-spoilers-obviously/275870/27 "2004-11-21T04:12:51Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Oh wait, here’s a plot hole. In S1 Buffy had a pager. But in S4 when she was given a pager by the Initiative she didn’t have one. Why, especially considering her occupation, would she make herself less get-ahold-of-able? Ooh, I know! Well, at least, I have a theory. In the interim was the summer she lived as Anne. She probably tossed the pager, since she _definitely_ didn’t want anyone getting in touch with her then. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-explain-away-all-your-buffy-plot-holes-spoilers-obviously/275870/28 "2004-11-21T11:57:53Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > I don’t have a particular plot hole to point out for fanwanking, but I must point out that William was _not_ a bad poet. He was a poet two centuries ahead of his time. So he’s going to be a bad poet for the next 60 or 70 years, then? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-explain-away-all-your-buffy-plot-holes-spoilers-obviously/275870/29 "2004-11-21T12:14:10Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The Judge. When he first is reassembled, the first person he judges is a vampire. The one with glasses who translated the text on the Judge for Spike. That vampire, an otherwise normal vamp, still had some good in him, somewhere. I don’t think that’s necessarily the mark of a soul. Other people would be judged guilty because they cared about others, but Dalton was judged guilty because he liked to read. It seems to me that the Judge judged people on their wanting to create or destroy. Caring about other people is creative, of course, and so is reading - you read, you larn, you grow. Angelus was judged innocent because all he wanted to do was kill and destroy - he didn’t care about anyone. > [@](#): > > Which is why I think Spike was marginally less evil than most other vampires. He didn’t want to destroy the world in season two, just mess it up a bit. And eventually, he chooses to redeem himself of his own free will. The fact that, as you say, he “longed for romantic acceptance” is itself evidence that he had more of the old William in him than most other vamps: he cares what other people think. That’s a form (stunted, in this case) of empathy, which I would think would be impossible for a soulless creature. I’ll also refer you back to Nikki Wood here. Very interesting scene; I must watch it again when my Complete Buffy DVD Box shows up tomorrow. > [@](#): > > Angelus has no strawberries at all: he’s pure pork. Angel being a porker with no strawberries is one of the things that really turned me off that show. God, Boreanaz was a fat bastard at the end. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-explain-away-all-your-buffy-plot-holes-spoilers-obviously/275870/30 "2004-11-21T12:28:29Z")
The reason for Spike’s “prowess” in Martial Arts is blindingly obvious. In Season two, where we learn of his back story, he’s in China with Dru’ - obviously he picked up everything there. Who, exactly, funded the Watcher’s Council? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-explain-away-all-your-buffy-plot-holes-spoilers-obviously/275870/31 "2004-11-21T14:42:00Z")
> [@Tapioca Dextrin](#): > > Who, exactly, funded the Watcher’s Council? They were probably bequeathed a few estates down the years from people whose only child had been avenged/laid to rest by the Slayer, the parents of a Slayer who had no other heir - that sort of thing. After that, it’s only a matter of careful investment and prudent spending. ---
**Author:** ![Katriona](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/katriona/32/113_2.png) [@Katriona](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Katriona)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-explain-away-all-your-buffy-plot-holes-spoilers-obviously/275870/32 "2004-11-21T20:27:55Z")
> [@ThatGuy](#): > > Now that’s a good one, it’s entirely possible the she lost/broke the pager(She was but a irresponsible 16 year old at the time). Also something tells me that Buffy doesn’t really want that kind of accesability…She is somewhat a loner on patrols and such, she is often annoyed when the more vulnerable scoobs want to accompany her to a more dangerous place. She often shows irritation at Giles overbooking her duties when she would rather just hang out at the Bronze or patrol in her own way. > > I just don’t see Buffy feeling an urgent need to replace the pager, they are pretty pointless now in the age of cell phones anyway…arn’t they? I had always thought that was Giles’ pager, that he gave her just for that one night while she was on her date. ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-explain-away-all-your-buffy-plot-holes-spoilers-obviously/275870/33 "2004-11-21T22:02:10Z")
How about this one then? Where did Buffy get her leather wardrobe? Leather jackets aren’t cheap but she seemed to have a new one every week. She had leather pants all the way back in season 1 (episode Angel), different pants in Season 3 (Graduation Day) and various skirts throughout Seasons 4, 5 and 6. There’s no way she could have been able to afford it herself and I doubt her mom bought the clothes for her. All that lovely leather had to come from somewhere though… any theories? ---
**Author:** ![ThatGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e5b9ba/32.png) [@ThatGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThatGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-explain-away-all-your-buffy-plot-holes-spoilers-obviously/275870/34 "2004-11-21T22:05:31Z")
In the season 2 opener we find that Buffy’s father had overcompensated for his absence in her life by buying her lots and lots of clothes. Seperate from that her mother seemed to have things pretty together financially…Not rich mind you but enough to buy her daughter some leather from time to time. ---
**Author:** ![audit1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed8c4c/32.png) [@audit1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/audit1)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-explain-away-all-your-buffy-plot-holes-spoilers-obviously/275870/35 "2004-11-21T22:24:21Z")
Buffy got the pants in the same place she buys her fashinable but affordable boots in Once More With Feeling. Meanwhile Watcher Council Operations. bring up a question. The watchers have a large wordlwide organization but dont use them to support the slayer properly. They have people to run the crucimentum, they mention a psychologist, have people to retrieve Faith with helicopters when she wakes up, a large London HQ with operations in Rome and other cities. but what do they send to actually support the slayer. one librarian. Why not a larger support group. A doctor? a priest to make holy water? An armourer? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-explain-away-all-your-buffy-plot-holes-spoilers-obviously/275870/36 "2004-11-21T22:31:40Z")
> [@audit1](#): > > Meanwhile Watcher Council Operations. bring up a question. The watchers have a large wordlwide organization but dont use them to support the slayer properly. They have people to run the crucimentum, they mention a psychologist, have people to retrieve Faith with helicopters when she wakes up, a large London HQ with operations in Rome and other cities. but what do they send to actually support the slayer. one librarian. Why not a larger support group. A doctor? a priest to make holy water? An armourer? Giles serves perfectly well as an armourer, in the western world obtaining holy water isn’t difficult if you’re circumspect, and there’s little need for a doctor because Slayers heal supernaturally quickly if they don’t actually die. One would surmise that most of the WC’s resources go on plugging one of the other plot holes - finding and identifying all the world’s potential Slayers. ---
**Author:** ![ThatGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e5b9ba/32.png) [@ThatGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThatGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-explain-away-all-your-buffy-plot-holes-spoilers-obviously/275870/37 "2004-11-21T23:07:34Z")
A lot of people seem to operate on the idea the the watcher’s council is primarily focused on the slayer. Sure they provide aid to the slayer in the form of a watcher (who’s responsibility it is to control all aspects of the slayer’s life) but i get the idea that watchers mostly research possible upcoming evils/ fight evil themselves in the form of knowledge and apocolyptic prevention. They are a sort of paranormal police force. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-explain-away-all-your-buffy-plot-holes-spoilers-obviously/275870/38 "2004-11-21T23:27:04Z")
> [@ThatGuy](#): > > A lot of people seem to operate on the idea the the watcher’s council is primarily focused on the slayer. Sure they provide aid to the slayer in the form of a watcher (who’s responsibility it is to control all aspects of the slayer’s life) but i get the idea that watchers mostly research possible upcoming evils/ fight evil themselves in the form of knowledge and apocolyptic prevention. They are a sort of paranormal police force. No, it was fairly well established in the show that the Watchers watch and leave the doing to others. ---
**Author:** ![ThatGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e5b9ba/32.png) [@ThatGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThatGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2004, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-explain-away-all-your-buffy-plot-holes-spoilers-obviously/275870/39 "2004-11-21T23:30:02Z")
Right, they can contract other to do the dirty work, their job is to be knowledeable on the paranormal. You can’t believe that they rely on a single slayer to fight the good fight for the entire world…If that was true Buffy’s rebellious nature alone would put them out of a job. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2004, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-explain-away-all-your-buffy-plot-holes-spoilers-obviously/275870/40 "2004-11-22T08:52:46Z")
Besides, it’s been established that they’re a bunch of wankers who usually do more harm than good. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-explain-away-all-your-buffy-plot-holes-spoilers-obviously/275870.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-me-explain-away-all-your-buffy-plot-holes-spoilers-obviously/275870.md?page=3)