# Let’s merge and be full partners! Oh wait, never mind, you can be my employee. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 14, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-s-merge-and-be-full-partners-oh-wait-never-mind-you-can-be-my-employee/517598 "2009-11-14T22:52:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-s-merge-and-be-full-partners-oh-wait-never-mind-you-can-be-my-employee/517598/21 "2009-11-15T10:24:13Z")
> [@jeanluc1968](#): > > It seems everyone on the board is forgetting the most important part of business. Who is getting the jobs? From reading this thread, sounds like **NinetyWt** is, and most of her jobs are from people other than “Moe & Joe Co” > [@](#): > > Obviously, Moe and Joe have made their reputation and are getting the jobs and that is worth more then any thing else. Obviously, **NinetyWt** has made HER reputation and is getting sufficient jobs outside of Moe & Joe Co to support herself. > [@](#): > > Now if you go in nicely and negotiate an employee contract with stock options, etc. At least you can get your foot in the door and a line into becoming an owner. Why the HELL would the owner of a successful business ( **NinetyWt** ) want to go back to being someone’s subordinate? **NinetyWt** is apparently doing well enough even in these times, she’s not looking to cut back her hours or retire, becoming an employee at this point is a _stupid_ move. Why give up her autonomy? And stock options? That only works if it’s a _publicly traded_ company. A two-man partnership seldom is. This sounds like a small business where stock options just don’t exist. > [@](#): > > Put yourself in their shoes in 20-30 years, and odds are, you would probably go down the exact same route (because for business purposes) it is the proper way to go. Keep in mind, they are not trying to insult you by making this new offer. They are just covering their asses. No, Moe is being insulting. Clearly, although she is running a successful business he does not see her as an equal, a fellow business person, but rather hired help. An offer of partnership was made, then swapped with one to become a mere employee. If I was **NinetyWt** I’d take it as a real slap in the face. On a certain level it doesn’t matter if Moe did this deliberately or unintentionally, it’s a _faux pas_ at best and at worst a sign that if she did enter into a partnership it’s likely that he’d treat her with less than respect, one of those situation where one person does all the heavy lifting and the other basks in the glory and takes credit for someone else’s hard work. > [@](#): > > Be nice and negotiate real terms and an ownership option if you think their firm is worth it in the long run. Also, keep in mind, pissing them off could cost you 1/3 to 1/2 of your current business. I m sure you probably don t want to lose that. That ignores the fact that if she becomes an _employee_ she can be fired after Moe takes ALL her business and clients, leaving her with nothing. I’m sure she wants that even less. She wasn’t looking for a job under Moe’s umbrella, _he_ approached _her_. With his partner retiring, it’s _Moe_ that needs _her._ She’s already stated that she can survive the loss of Moe as a client. Let me repeat that - Moe & Joe Co are her _customer_, not her employer, when she is operating as a subcontracting business. She doesn’t have to take this “offer”. Given that she would go from being the boss to being a subordinate it seems to me she’d be foolish to do that. You know, given that Moe’s partner is retiring and he doesn’t feel he can handle the business perhaps **NinetyWt** should make him an offer - offer to hire _him_ as the employee! ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-s-merge-and-be-full-partners-oh-wait-never-mind-you-can-be-my-employee/517598/22 "2009-11-15T15:05:36Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > It would have been nice if Moe had done that, too. Yeah. I honestly think he meant no harm, tho. > [@astro](#): > > Despite his technical acumen being partners with someone who plays around like this is financially dangerous. True. I’ve been thinking of that since yesterday. I certainly don’t want to get caught up in a bad relationship, and ruin our friendship. > [@China\_Guy](#): > > Suggest you would be interested in having a formal discussion and involving a lawyer that would provide suggestions on how to structure a partnership or buyout or something that is equitable to all parties. Agreed. If he brings it up again, I’m going to have to insist on retaining a lawyer to help us. > [@Oakminster](#): > > Also not sure I’d be comfortable in a three way deal with one person holding a controlling interest. With 52%, he can out vote both of the minority owners. Well, both the other subcontractor and I took it as a real offer, although I reckon it’s possible that he was just running his mouth. I think I will talk to the other sub about this controlling interest issue, thanks for pointing it out. > [@Harmonious\_Discord](#): > > I would be careful about what is posted here though. You don’t want problems from this post because it got read by someone. That is a good point, thank you. 🙂 > [@Broomstick](#): > > That ignores the fact that if she becomes an _employee_ she can be fired after Moe takes ALL her business and clients, leaving her with nothing. I’m sure she wants that even less. She wasn’t looking for a job under Moe’s umbrella, _he_ approached _her_. With his partner retiring, it’s _Moe_ that needs _her._ She’s already stated that she can survive the loss of Moe as a client. Let me repeat that - Moe & Joe Co are her _customer_, not her employer, when she is operating as a subcontracting business. She doesn’t have to take this “offer”. Given that she would go from being the boss to being a subordinate it seems to me she’d be foolish to do that. Very well said, **Broomstick**. You explained it much more clearly than I did. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-s-merge-and-be-full-partners-oh-wait-never-mind-you-can-be-my-employee/517598/23 "2009-11-15T15:09:23Z")
… Okay, no-one’s said the blatantly obvious here, so I will. Go talk to your other subcontractor. Tell him about Moe being clueless. Cause he probably is, from your description of him. Not malicious, just clueless. Get a unified front. Then gently but firmly point out to Moe that the idea of becoming his employee may be best for him, but not for you or the other guy. In fact, it would be pretty bad for you and the other guy, and neither of you thinks that’s the way to go. If he protests, ‘but my accountant said’, then point out the accountant is working for him, not you, and it just is not a workable idea for you. Ask him how committed he is to this new concept, point out that you’d much rather go back to the original way. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-s-merge-and-be-full-partners-oh-wait-never-mind-you-can-be-my-employee/517598/24 "2009-11-15T15:35:38Z")
What **E-Sabbath** said. Also, point out to him that his accountant’s job is to tell him how to make the most money legally – not to give legal or business-management advice. Ask him if he’d be comfortable giving you his customer base and current contracts and working for you for as long as you choose to employ him for whatever you choose to pay him. When he, shocked, says no, point out that’s just what he’s asking of you. Clueless may not understand nuance, but usually grasps fairness. That’s a way of bringing it across to him without angering him, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![jeanluc1968](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e47c2d/32.png) [@jeanluc1968](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jeanluc1968)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-s-merge-and-be-full-partners-oh-wait-never-mind-you-can-be-my-employee/517598/25 "2009-11-15T15:47:04Z")
well, you have a couple of options. as you said though, your best next step is probably to bring in a lawyer and look at everything. If you are confident you can pick up the contracts without their partnership, then other then keeping a corporate name, why hook up with them? Good luck on negotiations, seems you are about to enter into the next phase of your enterprise. You are obviously putting alot of thought into it, and that s pretty much what you have to do. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-s-merge-and-be-full-partners-oh-wait-never-mind-you-can-be-my-employee/517598/26 "2009-11-15T16:39:47Z")
You think the guy is “nice” and “doesn’t have a head for business”, but he knows damn well that’s a screw deal and he’s a complete prick for trying that bullshit on you. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-s-merge-and-be-full-partners-oh-wait-never-mind-you-can-be-my-employee/517598/27 "2009-11-15T17:12:21Z")
I went back and looked for that old thread where Moe first said anything about partnering. It was from January 10th of this year: [QUOTE=NinetyWt] But yesterday, as [Moe] was in my office, he mentioned that he had been talking to [Joe] about me “joining their firm” ! [/QUOTE] So I’ve been expecting a partner offer for 10 months. No wonder it pissed me off so much! 😛 Also, from reading that thread, I think I can’t add so well. :-/ ---
**Author:** ![Q.N.Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3da27b/32.png) [@Q.N.Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.N.Jones)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-s-merge-and-be-full-partners-oh-wait-never-mind-you-can-be-my-employee/517598/28 "2009-11-15T19:21:24Z")
I’m both a (female) lawyer and an environmental consultant who subcontracts to a company very similar to the one OP describes, run by an older man who wants to retire. Unfortunately, the OP is making the same kind of mistake that many women in business make. They think that if they are nice and giving and nurturing in the business relationship, the person they are doing business with will feel obligated to give them what is fair. Unfortunately, that is not how it works. I think the OP needs to learn to stand up for herself and negotiate like a businessperson–not pout because the other business owner is trying to get the best possible deal for himself. This is how business works. I think Moe or whatever his name is realizes that the OP is too timid to play hardball and is trying to take advantage. My own senior citizen boss is also very nice-seeming and knowledgeable, and we are even friends in private life. But at work, he is a businessman, and when I started working for him, he offered me an employment “deal” that was a lot of advantage for him and very little for me. Instead of complaining about my disappointment, I made a counter-offer, and we negotiated something that had advantages for both of us, and that required each of us to give a little. If you’re going to run your own business, you need to “man up” and learn to negotiate to get what you want. I know this sounds harsh, but it’s intended as friendly advice from one who knows. Our businesses sound similar, and if you want (non-legal) advice, I’d be happy to PM about this. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-s-merge-and-be-full-partners-oh-wait-never-mind-you-can-be-my-employee/517598/29 "2009-11-15T20:00:06Z")
I appreciate that, Q.N. You are right about women often not to step up and play hardball. Usually I’m pretty good about doing it. I meant my OP to come across more as a rant, than complaining or ‘pouting’. Maybe I failed at that too! Ha. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-s-merge-and-be-full-partners-oh-wait-never-mind-you-can-be-my-employee/517598/30 "2009-11-15T20:12:42Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Well it’s best if you know upfront if you know that your potential partner is a business doofus. Despite his technical acumen being partners with someone who plays around like this is financially dangerous. This. Regardless of his intentions, he made an insulting offer to the two of you. If you join up with him, the next insulting offer he makes is going to have your name attached to it. If you join up and leave him with a controlling interest in the reorganized venture, there won’t be a damn thing you can do about it. If you really want a partner, talk to the other sub about a partnership between the two of you. You can continue to do the work that Moe has to farm out, and you’ll go into the partnership on an equal footing - something that’s never going to happen with Moe. ---
**Author:** ![Q.N.Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3da27b/32.png) [@Q.N.Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.N.Jones)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-s-merge-and-be-full-partners-oh-wait-never-mind-you-can-be-my-employee/517598/31 "2009-11-15T20:24:03Z")
> [@NinetyWt](#): > > I appreciate that, Q.N. You are right about women often not to step up and play hardball. Usually I’m pretty good about doing it. > > I meant my OP to come across more as a rant, than complaining or ‘pouting’. Maybe I failed at that too! Ha. It’s just that your OP sounded to me like you were defeated or giving up. Complaining is fine, and something I do a lot of. 🙂 But I hope you are viewing this as Round One of negotiations, and not as The End. After all, it sounds like you are going to have some sort of relationship with this man and his company regardless. I hope that your first move was to rant, and your second move will be to make a counteroffer. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Onimous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea5d25/32.png) [@Ann\_Onimous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Onimous)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-s-merge-and-be-full-partners-oh-wait-never-mind-you-can-be-my-employee/517598/32 "2009-11-15T20:25:16Z")
> [@NinetyWt](#): > > I suppose he could always sell out to someone else entirely. I don’t think he’s entertaining that notion at the moment however. He’d always hinted that he would like to see me ‘inherit’ the business. With another subcontractor involved, my first thought was, “has he told this other person the same thing?” I’m worried that both of you may have been manipulated all along by this guy. But that’s just me. ---
**Author:** ![Category5](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85f322/32.png) [@Category5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Category5)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-s-merge-and-be-full-partners-oh-wait-never-mind-you-can-be-my-employee/517598/33 "2009-11-15T20:47:01Z")
You don’t need him. You (or you and the other sub) need to put on a big marketing push, starting yesterday, as his business organically winds down. He is just looking for an annuity, and you are not required to provide it. Got a kid? That’s who needs to benefit from your labors… ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-s-merge-and-be-full-partners-oh-wait-never-mind-you-can-be-my-employee/517598/34 "2009-11-16T00:47:39Z")
This is one of the more interesting threads I’ve read on the dope recently. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-s-merge-and-be-full-partners-oh-wait-never-mind-you-can-be-my-employee/517598/35 "2009-11-16T02:19:19Z")
Well thank you **mswas**. I aim to please. 😉 I appreciate everybody’s input; it surely is nice to be able to get serious comments which cut to the heart of the matter. I’m glad that I posted this rant; the responses have really opened my eyes to some things which I was ignoring. Thank you all. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-s-merge-and-be-full-partners-oh-wait-never-mind-you-can-be-my-employee/517598/36 "2009-11-16T03:50:44Z")
You: "So Moe, your accountant told you that it would be better for you to have a shitton of money versus splitting it with two other people? Wow. Genius that guy must be. Come to think of it, my accountant told ME the same thing, so maybe I can hire you… ---
**Author:** ![Iridescent\_Orb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@Iridescent\_Orb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iridescent_Orb)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-s-merge-and-be-full-partners-oh-wait-never-mind-you-can-be-my-employee/517598/37 "2009-11-16T06:49:59Z")
> [@NinetyWt](#): > > I went back and looked for that old thread where Moe first said anything about partnering. It was from January 10th of this year: > went back and looked for that old thread where Moe first said anything about partnering. > > “But yesterday, as [Moe] was in my office, he mentioned that he had been talking to [Joe] about me “joining their firm” !” > > So I’ve been expecting a partner offer for 10 months. No wonder it pissed me off so much! Perhaps you misunderstood what was meant by “joining their firm” Being hired as an employee is technically joining the firm, is it not? Even so, it sounds like Moe is trying to take advantage of you. Having you as an employee would let him ease into retirement while still milking the company (and your work) for money. This would be fair if he were providing an essential ingredient and your relative skill sets were highly unequal (e.g., he owned a McDonald’s franchise and you flipped burgers), but it sounds like you are closer to being peers. One approach is to sit down and discuss what everyone would bring to the table and what everyone would take away. Focus on seeing if a partnership and/or employment arrangement would actually increase the size of the pie, or if it would just change how it is being sliced. If the pie is not getting any bigger, it is unlikely you would be better off (as it would have to come at the expense of another party). Good luck. Keep us posted. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-s-merge-and-be-full-partners-oh-wait-never-mind-you-can-be-my-employee/517598/38 "2009-11-16T11:20:25Z")
The important thing here is to talk to the other subcontractor, though. Because if you two are united, he can’t play the two of you off each other. So get on the same page with him, first. Maybe you want to go partners with him and keep Moe as a client. Can Moe go anywhere else? ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-s-merge-and-be-full-partners-oh-wait-never-mind-you-can-be-my-employee/517598/39 "2009-11-16T12:46:03Z")
Is this thread still going? I recommend the Tony Soprano answer. Whack the guy. Like Tony you may not want to do it but hey, business is business. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-s-merge-and-be-full-partners-oh-wait-never-mind-you-can-be-my-employee/517598/40 "2009-11-16T13:57:49Z")
My friend is an environmental engineer. He had been an employee of a firm for years, which included bringing in new clients, etc. After he’d proven himself (and the partners realized that it would be a threat to their business if he left), he was invited to become a partner. But he had to buy into the practice, which in his case meant taking out a home equity loan for $250,000. The partnership wasn’t just handed to him; he had to put some skin in the game. Now this situation is different from the OPer’s because my friend was an employee first, which meant that any clients he brought in were owned by the corporation and not him personally. The OPer has more leverage because she has her own established book of business, as does the third sub-contractor. Complicating the matter is the fact that Moe is retiring. It seems to me that before Joe can even talk about a new partnership, he should dissolve his current partnership. He and Moe can hash out what a fair price would be for Joe absorbing all of the existing business. Once that is settled, then you can talk about what a fair buy-in price would be, based on your current assets. I, personally, would buy-in to a full partnership before I’d accept a minor stake (based on the % that I bring in to the combined business) because I’d want everyone to be equally invested in the success of the new business. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-s-merge-and-be-full-partners-oh-wait-never-mind-you-can-be-my-employee/517598.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-s-merge-and-be-full-partners-oh-wait-never-mind-you-can-be-my-employee/517598.md?page=3)