# Le't see those rape statistics **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 26, 2003, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-see-those-rape-statistics/157710 "2003-02-26T19:33:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Zoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/6de8d8/32.png) [@Zoff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoff)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-see-those-rape-statistics/157710/101 "2003-02-27T15:38:53Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by OpalCat_ > I should point out that my OP didn’t say “those who don’t believe the 1-in-4 statistic” but rather “high rape statistics”… by which my intended point was “those who don’t believe that rape statistics are high.” So you do believe that there’s some statistical accuracy? How is a poll that is so fundamentally flawed going to prove high rape statistics? People have debated statistics from a number of sources using much better methodology. Do you honestly think an internet poll on the Straight Dope will prove the number is “high”? What is “high”? Is it 2%, 10%, 25%, 75%? You say that it’s not perfectly accurate then defend it as a means to show statistics. It simply can not be used as a statistical source at all. Some Dopers have posted that they have been raped. I think that’s a better way of raising awareness than this poll. I realize that not everybody would like to post such a personal thing, but some have and I think it’s brave and informative. The pseudo-statistics seem to me to do more harm than good. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-see-those-rape-statistics/157710/102 "2003-02-27T15:39:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by OpalCat \* > \*\*I should point out that my OP didn’t say “those who don’t believe the 1-in-4 statistic” but rather “high rape statistics”… by which my intended point was “those who don’t believe that rape statistics are high.” \*\* but w/a/d/r, given the mind set of those you’re trying to convince, how would a voluntary, self selecting, non moderated, internet poll of a specific group of people cause some one with that mind set to change their mind? They’ve already decided that according to the evidence available to them (that they’re willing to believe) that the incidence of rape “isn’t that high” (whatever the number they think), and the additional information that x number of a subset of people from the SDMB say they’ve been raped, offers no set of information to give substance to a ‘rate’ over all. You may as well as ‘how many of you are left handed’ and try and extrapolate that to a meaningful level. **given the mind set that already exists**. See, if I’ve already decided that left handed ness is really rare 'cause no one I know personally is left handed, demonstrating that of the number of people who responded to that poll, x% said they were left handed, won’t cause me to rethink my position, since it’s a self selecting, non moderated, unscientific poll of a group of people who may or may not be a representational crossview of the population at large. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-see-those-rape-statistics/157710/103 "2003-02-27T15:42:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lizard \* > \*\* If I went to a party, passed out and woke up with my wallet gone, would I not be at least partly to blame? (No, I didn’t say this to her at the time; it occurred to me later.) \*\* What about if you were in your own home, but had a guest staying there, and you passed out and you wallet was gone? How much are you to blame for passing out at your own house? [honest curiosity here.] ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-see-those-rape-statistics/157710/104 "2003-02-27T15:46:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lizard \* > \*\*Don’t these examples cut to the core of what rape _is_? \*\* For the purposes of the poll, at least, rape = nonconsentual sex. (it’s worded that way in the poll itself) ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-see-those-rape-statistics/157710/105 "2003-02-27T15:50:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > \*\*demonstrating that any specific group of people (such as women of SDMB) includes the category of victims of crime (any/or specific) demonstrates what? \*\* …that rape may be a lot more common than many people think. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-see-those-rape-statistics/157710/106 "2003-02-27T15:54:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zoff \* > \*\*So you do believe that there’s some statistical accuracy? How is a poll that is so fundamentally flawed going to prove high rape statistics? \*\* No, not “statistical accuracy”. Why is this shit so hard for some of you to grasp? It boggles the mind. People who think that rape statistics aren’t high think that there isn’t very much rape going on. Showing that a lot of us have actually been raped may help them see that there is probably more rape going on than they thought. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-see-those-rape-statistics/157710/107 "2003-02-27T15:54:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by OpalCat \* > \*\*…that rape may be a lot more common than many people think. \*\* how on earth will it do that? given the mind set that already existed ya know. they don’t believe it happens frequently. discovering that x raw number of people answered this poll in the positive can (and would be) dismissed based on: a. it’s simply a raw number (as you keep on having to admit) b of a self selecting sample base. c. of a non standard sample group = no useable information whatsoever. I’ll go to the local high school, and post a voluntary sign up sheet asking ‘how many of you have red hair’? and get a raw number, will that give you **any** particular reason to change your already set in cement concept of ‘red hair is not a frequent natural hair color’? if it did, I’d seriously question your ability to evaluate data. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-see-those-rape-statistics/157710/108 "2003-02-27T15:55:43Z")
You are right, wring. If someone has an opinion already, it cannot be changed. Admins? Could you please close down the Great Debates forum as it serves no purpose? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-see-those-rape-statistics/157710/109 "2003-02-27T16:02:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by OpalCat \* > \*\*No, not “statistical accuracy”. Why is this shit so hard for some of you to grasp? It boggles the mind. > > People who think that rape statistics aren’t high think that there isn’t very much rape going on. > > Showing that a lot of us have actually been raped may help them see that there is probably more rape going on than they thought. \*\* it boggles my mind to hear you continue to insist this. \*\* people who think that rape statistics aren’t high\*\* in other words, they are looking at the **rate, percentage, frequency of occurance** **showing that a lot of us have been raped** demonstrates that there is a raw number. a number. a show of hands, remember? which does nothing to indicate the **rate**. I’ll try once again - there’s 3 kids in my family, two of em are left handed. shall I do a show of hands in order to prove to you that ‘left handed ness is a lot more frequent than you believe?’ I’m fairly confident that you wouldn’t budge, right? why not? I’ve shown a show of hands. you’d correctly point out that the sample set is not random, and that in any study, if your sample set has severe comprimises, general conclusions to the larger group shouldn’t be made, 'cause statistical anomilies occur, and you have to be able to demonstrate that you’ve been able to filter that out. and **given the mind set that exists already** (you’ve been in that thread, seeing them close their eyes and stick their fingers in their ears), why on earth would you believe that a raw number from such an obviously flawed sample group would be at all accepted as evidence to change their already set in fucking concrete the size of the hoover dam opinion of a rate??? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-see-those-rape-statistics/157710/110 "2003-02-27T16:04:53Z")
**Opal** give me a fucking break. Yes, opinions can be changed, **when you support the opposite conclusion with evidence** , and your poll is not evidence of a rate. not at all. not even close. especially to your claimed target audience. ---
**Author:** ![Lizard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@Lizard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lizard)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-see-those-rape-statistics/157710/111 "2003-02-27T16:07:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by OpalCat \* > \*\*What about if you were in your own home, but had a guest staying there, and you passed out and you wallet was gone? How much are you to blame for passing out at your own house? [honest curiosity here.] \*\* If I’m in _my own home_, then I can do as I damn well please. If my wallet wasn’t there, my first assumption would be that I’d misplaced it. Drunks aren’t known for being deliberate. I don’t shoose friends so casually that I would ever invite someone over who i thought might steal from me. What that means, is hardly _anyone_ gets to stay in my living space unless I’ve known them so long that I’d _give_ them the contents of my wallet willingly. I can count the friends like that I have on one hand. Everyone else? Use a hotel. But this example is a red herring anyway. My original example was intended to illustrate that people in strange places who drink too much or use drugs are behaving irresponsibly. Consuming a substance until you lose control of your actions does not mean you are absolved of all blame for whatever happens to you. Otherwise, no drunk driver would ever go to prison. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-see-those-rape-statistics/157710/112 "2003-02-27T16:13:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lizard \* > \*\*. Consuming a substance until you lose control of your actions does not mean you are absolved of all blame for whatever happens to you. Otherwise, no drunk driver would ever go to prison. \*\* false analysis - the drunk is sent to jail for what they did, their action. the rape victim who is drunk has something done to them, they didn’t participate in the action. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-see-those-rape-statistics/157710/113 "2003-02-27T16:17:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lizard \* > \*\*But this example is a red herring anyway. \*\* No, actually, it was just me wondering how much responsibility you thought I had in my own rape. ---
**Author:** ![Rhum\_Runner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rhum\_Runner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhum_Runner)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-see-those-rape-statistics/157710/114 "2003-02-27T16:19:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by OpalCat \* > \*\*I would have thought that the idiot of the second highest order would be one who got thier panties in such a twist over a poll of SDMB women about rape, and that the idiot of the highest order would be the one who went and put in a bogus vote to intentionally skew the results. \*\* After the display of ignorance you have shown, and continue to show, in this thread I humbly suggest you not try to think anymore. You might hurt yourself. > [@](#): > > By “statistics” here, I meant the percentages. I think that the main point is the raw numbers, or as some have phrased it, the “show of hands”. Well, which is it? Raw numbers or percentages? > [@](#): > > People who think that rape statistics aren’t high think that there isn’t very much rape going on… That is particularly insightful, like noting that people who believe the Earth is flat believe it isn’t round. Keep the genius flowing, please, don’t hold back. > [@](#): > > …Showing that a lot of us have actually been raped may help them see that there is probably more rape going on than they thought. This is nonsense! I don’t care what your show of hands or poll or whatever you want to call it indicates, it doesn’t mean anything! How can you not understand this? ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-see-those-rape-statistics/157710/115 "2003-02-27T16:20:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > it boggles my mind to hear you continue to insist this. > > \*\* people who think that rape statistics aren’t high\*\* > > in other words, they are looking at the **rate, percentage, frequency of occurance** > > **showing that a lot of us have been raped** demonstrates that there is a raw number. a number. a show of hands, remember? which does nothing to indicate the **rate**. Nice how you omitted the key parts in first quoting of me. The HONEST way to quote me would have been: **…think that there isn’t very much rape going on.** ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-see-those-rape-statistics/157710/116 "2003-02-27T16:25:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rhum Runner \* > \*\*Well, which is it? Raw numbers or percentages? > \*\* When you learn to read in context, let us know, will ya? That way we can start paying attention again. Percentages is what I meant when I said “I don’t care about the statistics”. An intelligent person reading the exchange would have realized that what I said was that the raw numbers were what was important, not the statistics/percentages. As for responding to **wring** anymore, I’m not even going to bother. As he’s (she’s?) said himself–once someone has a certain mindset, there is no point in even discussing anything else with them. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-see-those-rape-statistics/157710/117 "2003-02-27T16:25:54Z")
nice of you to again for (what is it now 3, 4 times) ignore the fact that a raw number of a self selected group is not going to do any fucking thing to convince some one that their own perceptions of relative frequency of an event is wrong. the ‘key part’ that you highlight here, ‘don’t believe very much is going on’ is (once again) a statement about the rate. frequency percentage relative number (small group to large group). ya know?? so, a raw fucking number of a self selected sub group of an admittedly non standard group will not fucking show a fucking thing about the relative rate, frequency, percentage, relative number etc. get it now?? or at least - address the issue now?? see it really pisses me off 'cause I **agree with you** that the folks who think it’s rare are clueless to the extreme. but you’re not helping - not with this poll and not with your continued insistance that demonstrating that a raw number of self selected sub group of an admittedly non random group will give any particular usable data to extrapolate to the larger group. ---
**Author:** ![Rhum\_Runner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rhum\_Runner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhum_Runner)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-see-those-rape-statistics/157710/118 "2003-02-27T16:28:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by OpalCat \* > \*\*As for responding to **wring** anymore, I’m not even going to bother. As he’s (she’s?) said himself–once someone has a certain mindset, there is no point in even discussing anything > else with them. \*\* Oh, the irony. ---
**Author:** ![Zoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/6de8d8/32.png) [@Zoff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoff)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-see-those-rape-statistics/157710/119 "2003-02-27T16:33:53Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by OpalCat_ > No, not “statistical accuracy”. Why is this shit so hard for some of you to grasp? It boggles the mind. **OpalCat** maybe it’s hard to grasp because you keep changing your explanation. First, it’s to show statistics, then it’s a show of hands, then it’s to show the amount of rapes even in a small sample size (which makes it a statistic.) If it’s not for statistics, why did you have a “no” option? Is it to prove that there are some Dopers who have not been raped? If so, could you point me to a thread where somebody doubted there were posters who hadn’t been raped? If this is the point, the numbers really don’t mean much because there’s no way to know who voted. Any banned member could vote they were violently raped just because they’re a jerk. As I said, I think the personal posts about it are more powerful than a poll. Or did you add a “no” option to try to get numbers of those who were raped vs. those who weren’t raped? You see, that’s a statistic. But the manner of gathering the numbers is so invalid, that the statistics are meaningless. Why is this so difficult for you to grasp? ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2003, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-see-those-rape-statistics/157710/120 "2003-02-27T16:40:12Z")
Oy. **OpalCat** , I’m sure you meant well with your OP. You wanted to demonstrate that rape occurs a lot more than some people think. Fair enough, and a noble goal in and of itself. However, as manny peoples have already pointed out, your poll has no statistical significance whatsoever. It fails the test, and can’t qualify as evidence in a debate. Well, maybe somewhere else, but not with a target audience as bright as the members of the Straight Dope. Why, instead of being extremely defensive about something fundamentally flawed, don’t you set out to improve your methods in order to make your results _worthwhile_? Change circumstances so the sample group is random, the questions are non-suggestive and evenly distributed, et cetera. Don’t keep butting heads over an already lost cause. Prove you _can_ deliver results by altering your methods. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-see-those-rape-statistics/157710.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-see-those-rape-statistics/157710.md?page=7)