Let Star Wars and Star Trek Die

Well, that seems to be a different question to what I was answering in the OP. It’s hard to say, really, if any of them will capture the public’s imagination like Star Trek or Star Wars. I was a a kid when Star Trek first came on TV, and it wasn’t as popular then as it became later. When Star Wars came out I was in college and I remember going with my uncle to the first showing in Las Vegas and the theater being pretty empty. I was totally blown away because I hadn’t really heard much about it (or any really) before going…we really just went on a whim since it seemed to be sort of sci-fi-ish.

What movies today might have similar impact? Well, depending on the followup maybe Avatar…it was visually stunning and people seemed to really like it (I was less impressed, but then I couldn’t help but pick it apart as I was watching it). As you said, the Matrix, though it’s sequels didn’t really help the franchise. The Marvel universe and possibly the Guardians of the Galaxy might have a similar impact if Marvel follows up with another block buster. The thing is, movies that have that level of impact are very rare. But the question I thought you were asking was whether we’d have any new non-Star Trek/non-Star Wars sci-fi franchises, and the answer to me seems clearly ‘yes’. As Simplicio says:

I think that pretty much sums things up at least from my perspective.

There’s another HUNGER GAMES movie on the way, and another TERMINATOR, right?

I’ll dispute this. The most sophisticated science fiction on TV was arguably Man Into Space, which is virtually forgotten now (It’s never been in syndication, or on popular video format). It was hard near-future SF about Man exploring our own solar system.

After that, you had The Twilight Zone and Outer Limits, both featuring some top-notch SF (although TZ had a lot of fantasy, as well) by some impressive writers. I still think that Harlan Ellisoin’s Demon with a Glass Hand from Outer Limits is the single best episode of any SF I’ve ever seen on TV.

There were others, too, if not as good – One Step Beyond (which, like TZ, was mostly fantasy and hortror, but had some SF, and Science Fiction Theater (which was generally pretty sub-par, but was directed at adults, not kids). It was even mentioned in Backj to the Future!

Wrong again. Did you forget 2001: A Space Odyssey? Definitely a Big Time Mass Market film. There were plenty of others, although you can argue about how mass market they were – Forbidden Planet, The Day the Earth Stood Still, Destination Moon, When Worlds Collide, War of the Worlds, The Time Machine, Robinson Crusoe on Mars….

Even if youy restrict yourself to the decade before Star Wars, you had ** The Andromeda Strain, The Terminal Man, Logan’s Run** and others.

No argument there.

Not true. It wouldn’t have run as long as it did if it weren’t “iconic”. It was immensely popular.

As I observe, they weren’t all postapocalyptic. There were LOTS of After-The-Bomb
films, but it was the times. The atomic bomb and its tensions were everywhere. But even something as awful as Moon Zero Two depicted an optimistic future, not a postapocalyptic wasteland.

You jusat weren’t THERE, son.

My objection to Star Trek and Star Wars is that they seem to have pigeonholed science fiction so that people tend to think that SF is one or the other, while fans like me feel that science fiction is a lot of other stuff, too.

Both series, when they started, were extremely fresh, in part because they introduced the general public to ideas that were common coin in literary SF, and might have made it into a couple of films, but which Hollywood types had avoided because they were afraid people wouldn’t “get it”, or wouldn’t accept. The classic example is Mr. Spock’s greenish skin and pointed ears, which the publicity goons at NBS airbushed out and recolored in the publicity stills sent out, until Roddenbery confronted them. But there was a lot of other stuff, too.

As I note above, Star Trek wasn’t the first SF for adults. It wasn’t even the first non-anthology SF show for adults, but it was considerably splashier than its predecessors, and featured humans on a non-cigar-shaped spaceship flying at faster-than-light speeds*. What’s more, they got a lot of noted SF writers (and the to-be-noted ones) to write for the series – Harlan Ellison, Theodore Sturgeon, Normal Spinrad, Robert Bloch, David Gerrold. They credited one to Fredric Brown. That’s something the later Trek series really didn’t do (although the aborted Star Trek – Phase II had scripts and treatments by known SF writers, as well, as did the short-lived animated series, which had stuff by David Gerrold and Larry Niven).

I do love the Trek seriues, asnd the movies, but the Trek universe ios too caught up in itself, and people need to be reminded that this isn’t the only possible image of the future.
Star Wars, on the other hand, came when, despite other SF properties being around, there wasn’t any big thing going on. Trekkies were holding their conventions, but the hoped-for Star Trek movie looked no closer, and Harlan Ellison had even written an article saying why he didn’t think it was ever going to happen.

Star Wars was unique because it embraced all those tropes that Hollywood had been avoiding for years – the Spaceport Bar with multitudinous aliens, some VERY non-human aliens, dogfights in space, weird space religions, robots as part of everyday life – lots of robots, not just one or two. The public ate it up, despite the fears of the head honchos that they wouldn’t Get It.

Of course, it’s a kid’s-eye view of Science Fictioin, as Lucas admitted at the time. Heck, he’d made an adult science fiction film before – THX-1138. He then said he retrogressed to his teen years for American Graffiti, before embracing his inner child with Star Wars.

SW took those SF tropes and strung them out on the Planetary Romance framework that had evolved into Flash Gordon, and which SF writers had been making fun of in the 1950s. Heinlein has Hazel Stone writing serials about rebels fighting the Galacti Emperor in her spare time in The Rolling Stones. Arthur C.; Clarke made fun of Space Epics where they still fought with swords in Tales from the White Hart. L. Sprague de Camp inveighed against SF Nobility with made-up names like Darth Vader and titles like Lord of the Sith and nouveau Ruritanian fiction.

The public didn’t care – they hadn’t read that stuff, and SW had a visceral good-vs.-evil punch, with obvious Bad Guys and underdog Good Guys. For the sequel, he persuaded Golden Age SF writer Leigh Brackett (who’d been writing John Wayne scripts since she gave up SF) to get back in the SF saddle to writer The Empire Strikes Back** Despite their problems, the original SW trilogy really hit home, and I’ve watched them more times than I can count.

The sequels and spin-offs didn’t quite do anywhere near as well. I don’t rewatch the second trilogy, or the animated series.

Again, though, the SW vision from the earliest films is a pretty childish place, while the second trilogy is a confusing one. But it’s a peculiar mishmash of ideas making up its reality. I’m not satying mainstream SF doesn’t have its share of illogical and questioinable premises, but not as many as the concentrated Sytar Wars franchise has.

Because of the concentration on SW, I suspect other, very different visions haven’t been able to come out, possibly because they are too different from the SW/ST model, and the Hollywood suits don’t like taking chances. We’ve been lucky to get two different versions of Dune, but I don’t think they did really well. Heinlein (Starship Troopers, The Puppet Masters, Jerry was a Man) and Asimov (Nightfall, I,Robot) have only reached the Big Screen in grotesquely altered versions. James Cameron and the Wachovskys, Ridley Scott, and Veerhoeven have produced very different visions of the future. But we need more. And different.

*I, and plenty of others, feel pretty sure that Roddenbery strip-mined the film Forbidden Planet for a lot of the details, despite his claims to have searched through SF magazines an illustrations. But watch that film and then watch an episode of ST. He even stole the flying-saucer ship shape from FP!

**I know others say that others rewrote her script after her death and before filoming, but the claim that none of her innovations survived vto see celluloid isn’t true – there’s Brackett stuff in the version I saw.

I liked Mel Brook’s idea --------- SpaceBalls 2: The Search for More Money

The thing with the New ST reboot is that it pretty much killed any chance of a new ST based TV series happening.

Unlike a lot of ST fans, I enjoyed all of the TV series that came out. Even Voyager! :eek:

Hunger Games was a complete and utter rip-off of The Running Man. Just because it was in a forest instead of a city does not make it an original story.

That’s what she said.

By 1990, I thought Star Wars was basically over. Well, in some ways it was.

Originally, Star Trek was a big deal for being actual no-kidding science fiction on television. But it’s been mishandled a bit, and got seriously overblown with the whole ‘Trekker’ thing.

I guess I agree with you. Or at least they can be put on a shelf for a bit?

I’d add that I don’t really want to see another DC superhero TV show right now.

I haven’t seen The Hunger Games, so I can’t say. But The Running Man (the movie) is a bit different from The Running Man (the novel) and both resemble an old short story by (I think) Robert Sheckley.

And The Hunger Games is very often compared to Takami Kōshun’s Battle Royale, which it fortuitously resembles.

TropesAreNotBad. Tezuka Osamu even riffed on the concept once, I think.

Well, what hasnt been done yet? Not just Star Trek and Star Wars but also Aliens, Starship Troopers, War of the Worlds, Stargate - its all been done. Its darn tough to come up with something new.

The 10th Victim by Robert Sheckley, which was both a short story and a novel. I was surprised to learn just now that there is a movie of this:

I’m pretty sure I was actually thinking of Sheckley’s “The Prize of Peril,” wherein the protagonist is a game show contestant, and dodging the general public, who can phone into the game show and report his whereabouts while he tries to avoid being nabbed (and killed!) for a defined length of time.

And just because its in a City instead of the Colosseum doesn’t make it an original story.

It was sort of a victim of its own success. TNG was an incredibly successful TV show, and so Paramount decided to launch three over-lapping spinoffs and six features films in the same relatively short span of time (not to mention a glut of similar space opera shows from various imitators). Some of these were great, some of them terrible, but we hit Trek-saturation pretty quickly, and there’s only so many interesting plots you can churn out for what’s basically re-iterations of the same setting. By the end of Enterprise, I think even most hard-core fans were pretty happy to let the franchise rest for a while.

That’s hardly true now though. Over the past ten years there’s just one (not very good) film franchise still around, releasing one movie every couple summers. So I’m not sure I really see where the OP is coming from. We’re hardly being inundated with Trek stuff anymore, and that’s been the case for more than ten years.

No, in fact we need more Star Trek. Real Star Trek. A show that shows a future where people are at their best and that you would want to live in.

Not only did the public get it but a new generation of film critics also got it. The reviews of 2001 reprinted in Agel’s book show a bunch of top line critics who had no idea about what was going on, even stuff that was pretty obvious.

As for everything else you said - you saved me a lot of writing.

There is a big difference between the two franchises. SW has a universe, but it is build around a story arc. You can obviously keep adding stuff to make money, but it is a bit artificial. I don’t know how the sequels will be, but I’m not that hopeful. I’m for stopping when you get to the end. We don’t need Harry Potter and the Real Estate Agent, do we?

Star Trek on the other hand is in a basically open universe. Even when you have arcs, they are not dominant. I’m beginning to watch DS9 all the way through and I’m enjoying that it is firmly in the ST universe while having a very different flavor from TNG.
The big problem I have with the reboot is that they show a lack of imagination. Find us new characters in a new part of the galaxy, not the same old characters with a new paint job.

But there seems to be nothing else which will be that game changer to surpass Trek or Star Wars, so those two cultural icons are now dragged out of retirement, given a rinse down, and shoved out again and again to top up their pension money. It’s not so much about being inundated, it’s about them both being a block on creativity.

I don’t really see that. We’ve listed tons of non-SW, non-ST sci-fi films that have been made in recent years. Far more than the number of SW and ST films that have been made over the time period (or total, even). I don’t see how you can perceive the existence of those two franchises exercising some sort of “block on creativity”.

I wouldn’t mind seeing a new Star Trek series. That would be cool.