# Let the poor woman die already! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 17, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029 "2005-03-17T19:11:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/321 "2005-03-22T01:38:12Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > [http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/21/schiavo/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/21/schiavo/index.html) My favorite part of this article was this: > [@](#): > > He [David Gibbs, the parents’ attorney] said her right to due process has consistently been denied by lower courts – a statement that drew intense questioning from the judge. > > Pressed by [Judge James] Whittemore [of the Middle District of South Florida] to cite any case law to support his argument, **Gibbs admitted he could not think of any.** Bolding mine. This is how I pictured the conversation going: Attorney: Your Honor! Mrs. Shiavo has CONSISTENTLY been denied her due process by courts lower than yours! Judge: Oh, yeah, needledick? Where? When? Attorney: Um… Judge: Counselor? Attorney: …Uh…well…you see…I don’t know exactly. I can’t think of any denial of her rights to due process. But it DID happen! Judge: :smack: What I found most telling about her “denial of due process” was this quote by Norman Cantor, a law professor at Rutgers University who has followed this case (this quote is from an article in today’s USA Today): “The truth is, her interests were well represented by the lawyers for the Schindler family…and by her husband, who has never been shown to be an inappropriate guardian…The notion that she wasn’t getting due process is ludicrous. **She’s gotten more due process than any patient in medical history**.” Bolding mine again. Also, again from today’s USA Today, Bryan Jennett (who, along with Fred Plum, authored a paper in 1972 for a British medical journal called “Persisent Vegetative State After Brain Damage: A Syndrome in Search of a Name”) had the following things to say regarding this situation: [Regarding the parents’ belief that their daughter can respond to them]: :“Wishful thinking” [Regarding the videotape that allegedly shows Shiavo’s eyes open and her smiling]: “A lot of these can be just reflex reactions.” Dartmouth neurology professor James Bernat had this to say: “Just looking at a videotape of someone propped up in bed, with their eyes blinking and so on, it looks like they’re aware…\Patients in a persistent vegetative state continue to have periods of being awake, but there is no presence of awareness. Because their brain stem is intact, people in a vegetative state can follow things with their eyes, but only slightly to the left or to the right.” This thing is just mind-numbing to me. Let the woman’s body die, the way that her soul did fifteen years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/322 "2005-03-22T01:50:14Z")
I thought that Terry and Operation Rescue had been convicted of racketeering under the RICO laws. After googling I find that he was sued by NOW under the RICO statute and settled after [NOW won a RICO judgement](http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/aboralix.htm) against another group of defendants. Note: My link is an atheist website but it’s the only cite I could find that wasn’t a pro-life site painting Terry as a martyr. ---
**Author:** ![Good\_Egg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/96bed5/32.png) [@Good\_Egg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Good_Egg)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/323 "2005-03-22T02:21:40Z")
Having Al Sharpton as their spokesman would give the parents more credibility than Randall. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Nic2004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4491bb/32.png) [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/324 "2005-03-22T02:44:08Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > **Shayna** > > Excellent letter. I my paraphrase it, if that is all right. > > These letters will be hand written (I read somewhere that emails are not counted as much as handwritten letters). Here is the Senator you need to tell to butt out of our right to have a say in the medical handling of our loved one’s. US Senate emails ---
**Author:** ![Nic2004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4491bb/32.png) [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/325 "2005-03-22T02:45:35Z")
> [@Nicodemus2004](#): > > Here is the Senator you need to tell to butt out of our right to have a say in the medical handling of our loved one’s. > US Senate emails [US Senators](http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm) Try this again ---
**Author:** ![Nic2004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4491bb/32.png) [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/326 "2005-03-22T03:05:59Z")
**Shayna** - I have sent a paraphrased email to our Senator Bill Nelson and one to Mel Marinez as an influential Republican in Pres. Bush’s camp. Thanks for the push. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/327 "2005-03-22T08:02:33Z")
DoctorJ: what do you have to say about the opinion of this radiologist regarding her scans? > **[CSI MEDBLOGS: CODEBLUEBLOG ANALYZES TERRI SCHIAVO'S CT OF THE BRAIN](https://codeblueblog.blogs.com/codeblueblog/2005/03/csi_medblogs_co.html)** > > THIS BRAIN IS NOT THAT BAD Thanks to reader "primer" I've been directed to the University of Miami Ethics program website where they posted this image from a CT scan of Terri Schiavo's brain in 1996. The sentence attached to... > [@](#): > > Granted, it is severely thinned, especially for Terri’s age, but I would be nonplussed if you told me that this was a 75 year old female who was somewhat senile but fully functional, and I defy a radiologist anywhere to contest that. > > I HAVE SEEN MANY WALKING, TALKING, FAIRLY COHERENT PEOPLE WITH WORSE CEREBRAL/CORTICAL ATROPHY. THEREFORE, THIS IS IN NO WAY PRIMA FACIE EVIDENCE THAT TERRI SCHIAVO’S MENTAL ABILITIES OR/OR CAPABILITIES ARE COMPLETELY ERADICATED. I CANNOT BELIEVE SUCH TESTIMONY HAS BEEN GIVEN ON THE BASIS OF THIS SCAN. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/328 "2005-03-22T08:29:59Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > DoctorJ: what do you have to say about the opinion of this radiologist regarding her scans? > > [CodeBlueBlog: CSI MEDBLOGS: CODEBLUEBLOG ANALYZES TERRI SCHIAVO'S CT OF THE BRAIN](http://codeblueblog.blogs.com/codeblueblog/2005/03/csi_medblogs_co.html) I think he is getting an awful lot from one cut of one CT scan; that could either represent his greater experience or it could be that he sees what he wants to see. I can only stand by what I said–I have never seen this degree of atrophy in a head CT in anyone, personally. I question his claim to have seen “much worse” in marginally functional patients, only because it’s hard to get “much worse” and still have anything at all. He loses me when he starts going on about how the presence of a shunt indicates that she had to have had a major head trauma, implying that the initial event was actually caused by a beating from Michael. It’s just hard to grasp how fifteen years could go by without that coming out. It seems far more likely to me that the shunt he is seeing is actually the thalamic implant that was used early on in Terri’s course, and he’s grasping at straws (and, again, seeing what he wants to see). That said, his specialty is radiology, and for all I know he could be right on about the scan. My specialty, however, is about putting all the pieces together into a whole, and it is just hard to put the pieces that we can discern here (the scan, the initial history, her clinical signs, her lack of progression) together into any sort of favorable prognosis. ---
**Author:** ![Scoundrel\_Swanswater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dfb087/32.png) [@Scoundrel\_Swanswater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scoundrel_Swanswater)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/329 "2005-03-22T12:49:02Z")
On the Dutch news they just said that the judge had ruled that the feeding-tube doesn’t have to be re-inserted. Is this true? Will this travesty finally be over or are there still ways for the parents to have it overturned? ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/330 "2005-03-22T13:01:03Z")
The judge has refused to reinsert the tube. The parents will now appeal to the 11th Circuit Cour of Appeals in Atlanta. If that fails, they will go to the Supreme Court, who may or may not decide to hear the case at all. SCOTUS has refused twice before to review the case. Do we have a transcript of the judge’s ruling yet? I’d love to know his reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![romansperson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/romansperson/32/17100_2.png) [@romansperson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/romansperson)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/331 "2005-03-22T13:02:22Z")
> [@vinryk](#): > > On the Dutch news they just said that the judge had ruled that the feeding-tube doesn’t have to be re-inserted. > Is this true? That is what is being reported here: [http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Schiavo/wireStory?id=602924](http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Schiavo/wireStory?id=602924) ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/332 "2005-03-22T13:07:17Z")
The Code Blue guy doesn’t strike me as an objective person reporting facts. He’s highly emotional, overuses capital letters, comes off as “shouting.” He has other entries with titles like, “Why do the Democrats want Terri Schiavo dead?” and “I called Mark McGwire a cheat 7 years ago!” and so on. He’s a bore and strikes me as a megolomaniac. That’s based on 5 minutes of persusing his blog. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/333 "2005-03-22T13:15:02Z")
Yes, the judge ruled against the parents. I’m a little shocked. [http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/22/schiavo/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/22/schiavo/index.html) Among other things, he says their case lacked “substantial likelihood of success” in court, and he seems to reject the idea that she has not had due process. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/334 "2005-03-22T13:20:54Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > he seems to reject the idea that she has not had due process. That’s actually just about their entire case, so I shouldn’t put it like that. But he did reject that argument, as well as the idea that her religious beliefs were being infringed. Jeez, when you bring a case to court and tell the judge you can’t even cite the law to back up your argument… ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/335 "2005-03-22T13:27:06Z")
I posted this in a GD thread on the topic, but I am curious to get information. It was observed on a liberal blog that the Senate vote on the “Save Terri” bill was with three members, which lacked a quorum by a few members. Does this mean that the bill Bush signed was a constitutional non-starter, or does the Republican Senate Triumverate’s invocation of special rules allow them to pass bills by three people? ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/336 "2005-03-22T14:18:05Z")
I wonder what will happen at the appelate court, esp. when the parents have said they’re doing it to “save her life,” i.e., to hope for a different decision and a delay rather than having any legitimate concern about the initial case. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the grounds for an appeal have to be related to the process of the original trial, not just the fact that you didn’t like the decision. Of course, I wouldn’t be surprised by legislative grandstanding that overturns the Florida courts, but would they have judicial authority to do so? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/337 "2005-03-22T16:38:26Z")
[http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/22/schiavo/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/22/schiavo/index.html) [quote] The Bush administration would have preferred a “different ruling,” White House press secretary Scott McClellan said while accompanying the president on a trip to New Mexico. [quote] Looking at you 11th circuit! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/338 "2005-03-22T17:26:23Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > Correct me if I’m wrong, but the grounds for an appeal have to be related to the process of the original trial, not just the fact that you didn’t like the decision. I get the sense that you’re right. In the February 25 order that set the date for the removal of the feeding tube, Judge Greer said “Five years have passed since the issuance of the February 2000 Order authorizing the removal of Terri Schiavo’s nutrition and hydration and there appears to be no finality in sight to this process. The Court, therefore, is no longer comfortable in continuing to grant stays pending appeal of Orders denying Respondent’s various motions and petitions. The process does not work when the trial court finds a motion to be without merit but stays the effect of such denial for months pending appellate review. Also, the Court is no longer comfortable granting stays simply on the filing of new motions and petitions since there will always be “new” issues that can be plead. The Respondents will need to demonstrate before the appellate courts that their requests have merit and accordingly are worthy of a stay.” I’m not sure how they would pass a law to overturn anything further. ---
**Author:** ![Dob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/339 "2005-03-22T17:32:59Z")
You think GW was pissed at this one? It is nice to see that some people do take their job seriously and dont bow to fundie politics. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/340 "2005-03-22T17:56:10Z")
Is it true that Terri is no longer being hydrated? If that’s the case, will that not hasten the dying process considerably? I keep seeing a statistic that she would be expected to expire within a couple of weeks but without water wouldn’t that be more like three or four days? She’d be pretty close to dropping any second, would she not? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029.md?page=18)