# Let the poor woman die already! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 17, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029 "2005-03-17T19:11:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/441 "2005-03-23T15:45:27Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > I saw her on CNN today, and it was pretty bizarre. Among other things, she claims to have found an empty insulin bottle in the trash after one of Michael’s visits. Evidently this dead-cerebral-cortex condition is contagious, and he became too stupid to remove the evidence from the scene of the crime. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > I wonder if her motivation was purely vindictive or if there’s an element of opportunism. Yeah, that’s pretty much the only open question. If I were in his shoes, I’d have a private dick looking for evidence that she’d getting paid off so I can find a nice deep pocket to sue (I presume there’s no point in going after someone with the slipshod work ethic that got her fired in the first place). ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/442 "2005-03-23T15:52:13Z")
> [@fessie](#): > > You mean to tell me that after a bazillion diaper changes and feedings and baths; after being thrown up on, pooped on, and not getting a decent night’s sleep in the past 14 months; after helping them with their first words and first steps, not to mention carrying these sweet darlings in my body for 38 weeks 5 days – one day I’m just supposed to sit quietly on the sidelines? But if they fall on their faces as adults, then I’m to welcome them back home with open arms, with no strings attached? > > It’s a wonder anyone signs up for this job. The other option is to be one of “those” Mother-in-Laws that shows up in advice columns: Dear Abby: I don’t know what to do. My husband and I want to paint our bedroom. I really want this nice light blue but my mother in law thinks peach is a better color. I’m not sure why my mother in law should get to decide what color my bedroom is, but my husband looks to her advice in everything and doesn’t trust my judgement! Married to Mama’s Boy, Phoenix (My mother-out-law chose the color of my bedroom. One of the many reasons I am happy to have divorced her apron string attached son). ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/443 "2005-03-23T16:00:46Z")
> [@](#): > > I do have a problem with their endless lies (esp. from her father regarding all these interactions he has with her, “she smiled,” “she made a face,” etc.) To be fair, I don’t think they are lies. I think it’s very easy to fool yourself when someone is in the condition that Terri is in. She DOES smile, make sounds, grimace, and so on. She might even have a limited ability to follow motion directly in front of her face. I would suggest listening to the audio of him talking in the pauses between Terri’s moaning. I don’t see deception here, I see self-deception. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/444 "2005-03-23T16:07:04Z")
This article in today’s [Washington Post](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58819-2005Mar23.html) (resgistration required, but it’s free and they’ve never bugged me) mentions that Republican legislators are starting to see some negative fallout from consitutents. Keep those letters coming! > [@Rep. Paul Ryan (R-Wis)](#): > > I got people saying, ‘Why are you sticking your nose in this family’s business?’ The less people know about the issue, the more opposed they are to what we did. . . . The more they understand, the more likely they are to agree with us. Somehow, I think it’s the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/445 "2005-03-23T16:11:52Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > To be fair, I don’t think they are lies. I think it’s very easy to fool yourself when someone is in the condition that Terri is in. She DOES smile, make sounds, grimace, and so on. She might even have a limited ability to follow motion directly in front of her face. I would suggest listening to the audio of him talking in the pauses between Terri’s moaning. I don’t see deception here, I see self-deception. I think that’s typical of pathological liars to halfway believe their own lies. Yes, yes. A bit of googling confirms that at least others agree with me, even if it’s not proof: [http://www.osric.com/university/nancyandjohn.html](http://www.osric.com/university/nancyandjohn.html) > **[FaqFarm.com is available at DomainMarket.com](https://www.domainmarket.com/buynow/faqfarm.com)** > > Domain for Sale. FaqFarm.com. Request Price. What Are the > Advantages of a Super Premium .Com Domain? Increased Traffic. Search Engine Ranking. Brand Recognition. > Immediate Presence. Higher Profits. Great Investment. #1 in Premium Domains. 300,000 of... > **[earthtym.net](http://www.earthtym.net/ref-charismatic.htm)** > > Conscience,Urine Therapy,Hiatal Hernia,Natural Health Doctor,Global Health Education [http://www.healthyplace.com/Radio/articles/pathological\_liars.htm](http://www.healthyplace.com/Radio/articles/pathological_liars.htm) Lots more. Let me just say that I’ve known pathological liars and what makes them so frustrating is that they are incapable of the reflection or intellectual honesty to separate what they say from reality. That’s what makes them pathological liars rather than just liars. I think Mr. Schindler is a pathological liar. The others are probably just willfull/self-deluding/passionate about Terri. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/446 "2005-03-23T16:19:44Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > The Schindlers have appealed to the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals, who has referred the case to the full panel. According to [CNN.com](http://CNN.com), the panel voted 2-1 not to order her feeding tube re-inserted. This means the Schindlers’ next step is to appeal to the Supreme Court, which has declined to hear it, as you’ve already noted. > > Unless the SCOTUS wishes to visit a particular issue now, it’s over. > > Robin Not necessarily. Florida is trying to pass a bill forcing everyone in a PVS to stay attached to feeding tubes, regardless of family instructions. > [@](#): > > [Wednesday’s New York Times]n Tallahassee, Governor Bush worked to gather support for a bill that could force at least a temporary restoration of Ms. Schiavo’s feeding tube. A measure passed last week by the House of Representatives would outlaw the withdrawal of food and water from people in a “persistent vegetative state,” as doctors have diagnosed Ms. Schiavo, who had not left specific instructions refusing artificial sustenance. > > The Senate refused to take up the bill last week because they feared it was unconstitutional. Nine Republican senators joined Democrats in voting against a similar measure, and on Tuesday a poster appeared in the Capitol reading, “Wanted: The Republican 9 to Save Terri’s Life.” ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/447 "2005-03-23T16:34:33Z")
> [@Barbarian](#): > > Not necessarily. Florida is trying to pass a bill forcing everyone in a PVS to stay attached to feeding tubes, regardless of family instructions. If the Florida Legislature passes this, and Bush signs it, all of them fully knowing what happened the last time they passed a bill to control this situation, and knowing that the same thing will happen again - can a judge find an entire state legislature in comtempt of court? ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/448 "2005-03-23T16:52:29Z")
I don’t think that’s going to happen. There’s at least two that are standing firm, saying they have no business interfering in this matter. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/449 "2005-03-23T17:03:24Z")
> [@Barbarian](#): > > Not necessarily. Florida is trying to pass a bill forcing everyone in a PVS to stay attached to feeding tubes, regardless of family instructions. holy fuck. which would have meant in my fathers case, that instead of a peaceful gentle fading away in 9 days surrounded by those he loved (I was able to stay with him at the hospice, so he was never alone), he’d have been forced to remain breathing for 3 or 4 months until the brain cancer returned and slowly, painfully killed him, and wouldn’t have had family able to stay with him day and night for that whole time (I could take 2 weeks off work suddenly, not months, could deal with only sleeping for 2 hours at a time for 9 days, not months etc. etc etc.). What absolute fucks. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/450 "2005-03-23T17:51:28Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Is anyone else trying to imagine this funderal? How can these people come together and finally grieve for Terri? If I were MS, I would fear for my life at the funeral. I’m sure they’ll find a new crutch in suing the shit out of everyone for wrongful death. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/451 "2005-03-23T17:55:03Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > I’m sure they’ll find a new crutch in suing the shit out of everyone for wrongful death. That’s why **elanorigby** called it a “ **fund** eral.” It will help to “fund” their future lifestyle. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/452 "2005-03-23T18:06:29Z")
> [@wring](#): > > What absolute fucks. Relax. It’s not going to happen. Despite Randal Terry and his “Wanted” posters of the so-called Republican Nine, at least two of them have told him to go pound sand. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/453 "2005-03-23T18:11:23Z")
Shange of plan. [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,151227,00.html](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,151227,00.html) They’re ditching the Supreme court for now, and going back to get a full hearing from the court of appeals. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/454 "2005-03-23T19:52:03Z")
Dammit dammit dammit. It looks like they changed the language in the Florida legislature and got enough votes. You know, all the parents have to do is tie this up in the courts. They never really have to win. They just have to keep fighting. Too new for a link, but ABC Radio is breaking in now with a Live Report. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/455 "2005-03-23T19:55:24Z")
DCF is filing another request with the court. They’re now claiming that review of Terri’s medical records indicates that she was misdiagnosed. She’s not in a PVS, she’s in a state of “minimal conciousness.” Paging **DoctorJ**. Huh? What’s minimal consciousness? We’ll see if the court grants DCF’s request. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/456 "2005-03-23T19:55:41Z")
I’ve read the whole thread, over a period of several days, but I haven’t reviewed the whole thing today, so apologies if this has been mentioned. If Terri is “not there” and has no consciousness of self or what’s happening around her, does that mean that Michael has no responsibility to carry out her wishes? If Terri told him “I wouldn’t want to live like that”, isn’t it implicit that the harm is in her **knowing** that she is “like that”, being **conscious** of her inability to communicate, care for herself, etc. If she’s truly not aware, can’t we say that there’s no harm in keeping her alive? Who’s being hurt? (Goes without saying that I’m leaving aside all the other issues raised by this case, like Congress’s involvement, the injustice of people being disconnected if they can’t pay, etc.) ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/457 "2005-03-23T20:10:10Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Shange of plan. > > [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,151227,00.html](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,151227,00.html) > > They’re ditching the Supreme court for now, and going back to get a full hearing from the court of appeals. And the full Appeals Court denied her parents’ case 10-2. [Link.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60559-2005Mar23.html) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/458 "2005-03-23T20:11:51Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > I’ve read the whole thread, over a period of several days, but I haven’t reviewed the whole thing today, so apologies if this has been mentioned. > > If Terri is “not there” and has no consciousness of self or what’s happening around her, does that mean that Michael has no responsibility to carry out her wishes? > > If Terri told him “I wouldn’t want to live like that”, isn’t it implicit that the harm is in her **knowing** that she is “like that”, being **conscious** of her inability to communicate, care for herself, etc. > > If she’s truly not aware, can’t we say that there’s no harm in keeping her alive? Who’s being hurt? > > (Goes without saying that I’m leaving aside all the other issues raised by this case, like Congress’s involvement, the injustice of people being disconnected if they can’t pay, etc.) You could say the same thing about executing the wills of deceased people. If the person is dead and doesn’t know what’s happening then why should their wishes be carried out? Also, it isn’t Michael who’s making these decsions but the courts. Michael asked the courts to decide what Terri’s wishes would have been. He did not directly ask for her tube to be removed. It’s not the Schindlers against Michael Schiavo, no matter how much shit and slander they fling at that poor guy, it’s the Schindlers against Terri herself. The courts are just protecting Terri’s rights. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/459 "2005-03-23T20:12:09Z")
> [@fessie](#): > > You mean to tell me that after a bazillion diaper changes and feedings and baths; after being thrown up on, pooped on, and not getting a decent night’s sleep in the past 14 months; after helping them with their first words and first steps, not to mention carrying these sweet darlings in my body for 38 weeks 5 days – one day I’m just supposed to sit quietly on the sidelines? But if they fall on their faces as adults, then I’m to welcome them back home with open arms, with no strings attached? > > It’s a wonder anyone signs up for this job. > > OTOH, the arguments for the Schindlers’ having lost their grasp are pretty compelling. I’m glad I raised my objections, even if they were roundly defeated. I still feel sorry for those poor people. > > This whole situation has been an amazing learning experience for all of us, I imagine. Personally I had no idea that people with brain damage opened their eyes and moved around. **eleanorigby** thanks for the education. I’ve got two girls, the youngest of which is just over 18, and what you said is exactly what you do. Welcome to parenthood. You’ve got to let them be free while still being there to support them. It’s a lot harder than changing diapers, I can tell you that. The fact is, your kid being married doesn’t matter. At 18, they make their own health care decisions. They can do a medical power of attorney for a boyfriend, roommate, whatever, it is their right. Parents of 18 year olds, who are legally adult but not really adults yet often, grit their teeth a lot. But you’re going to love it. ---
**Author:** ![brownie55](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f14d63/32.png) [@brownie55](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brownie55)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/460 "2005-03-23T20:12:17Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > If Terri is “not there” and has no consciousness of self or what’s happening around her, does that mean that Michael has no responsibility to carry out her wishes? > > If Terri told him “I wouldn’t want to live like that”, isn’t it implicit that the harm is in her **knowing** that she is “like that”, being **conscious** of her inability to communicate, care for herself, etc. > > If she’s truly not aware, can’t we say that there’s no harm in keeping her alive? Who’s being hurt? > > (Goes without saying that I’m leaving aside all the other issues raised by this case, like Congress’s involvement, the injustice of people being disconnected if they can’t pay, etc.) For me, it would be a matter of keeping my word to my wife. For me, if I made that promise to her, whether she was capable of knowing I carried it out would make no difference. I would know I was letting her down and what we shared down if I did not respect her wished enough to do everything in my power to carry those wishes out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029.md?page=24)