# Let the poor woman die already! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 17, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029 "2005-03-17T19:11:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![widdleytinks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a4c791/32.png) [@widdleytinks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/widdleytinks)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/481 "2005-03-23T21:31:52Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > Wow, **widdley**. > > Tell us how you really think. > 😃 The bad news is, I’m probably not done yet! Did you SEE the news conference? Are you as amazed as I am by the pervasive ignorance on the part of our politicians? Probably not! Does it occur to anyone that the Schindler’s are pathologically using the government to entertain their fantasies and we’re fucking paying for it? regards, widdley ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/482 "2005-03-23T21:37:38Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > I’d like to read more of the evidence about Terri’s wishes. I haven’t read the court transcripts, and all we hear on the news is that Terri told her husband, after watching a movie, that she “wouldn’t want to live like that.” I must assume there’s more evidence than that casual statement, because we all know that when the rubber hits the road, any of us might change our minds. Obviously there was enough evidence for \*twenty freaking judges over the course of 7 years \* to rule on removing the tube. The family is beating the same old tired drum with arguments that have been refuted time and time again. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/483 "2005-03-23T21:44:04Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > I’d like to know what Terri meant by “living like this” – whether she meant “let me die if I’m in a coma and don’t know what’s going on around me”, or “let me die if I can’t take care of myself.” Isn’t there a difference? Some of us might be okay with life-support if we have the ability to interact with our loved ones, even if it’s only blinking our eyes to signifiy yes or no to a question. Some of us would want to die if we had to depend on others for basic care. Even if there is, how is whatever difference there might be between those 2 options relevant to _this_ case? Terri Schiavo is _not_ in a coma. Her cerebral cortex has deteriorated to such a degree that it is _liquified_. It’s not a matter of being comatose vs simply being unable to attend to her own basic needs; it’s about the fact that she has _no brain function at all, and never will, EVER_. Terri _cannot_ blink her eyes to signify yes or no, in spite of her parents’ lies to the contrary. Hours and hours and hours of unedited video tape have proven that beyond all doubt in a court of law, as has the fact that her brain scans show _no activity_. None. No cognitive ability exists. The remaining brain stem allows her heart to beat and her lungs to pump air, _merely as basic body functions_. Terri Schiavo made it clear to several people that she would not want to live like this. And she made it clear enough that every judge who has heard arguments on the merits of that testimony has concluded that her wishes were **clear and convincing**. What on earth is so hard to understand about that? ---
**Author:** ![Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misery_Loves_Co)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/484 "2005-03-23T21:44:59Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > Some of us might be okay with life-support if we have the ability to interact with our loved ones, even if it’s only blinking our eyes to signifiy yes or no to a question. Some of us would want to die if we had to depend on others for basic care. Being in a state like you describe is not what living wills are about. What you are describing is a conscious, aware person who’s being kept alive by machines. In that state, no-one would dream of pulling the plug - indeed, it would be illegal, (IANAL) and in fact, to do so might constitute assisted suicide, rather than the issue that is being discussed here. This issue involves someone who is completely unconscious (regardless of her open eyes), non-aware entity, which is alive only in the sense that it continues metabolic function. _This_, not the situation you describe, is the purpose of a living will and healthcare directive. If you think you’d want to be kept alive even if you had no chance of ever recovering consciousness, you can make arrangements to that effect, just as Terry effectively did the opposite. And your wishes would (ideally) be carried out. I say ideally because in this situation Terry’s wishes are _not_ being carried out. That’s really the point: not what anyone else thinks _they_ would want, but what Terry wanted, and that wish has been proven. The rest is just crap. If you want your wishes, whatever they might be, respected when you’re gone/partially incapacitated/totally incapacitated, then this whole issue is a no-brainer. Don’t worry that b/c of Terry Schiavo, people are going to run around yanking the plug on conscious, though traumatized people. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/485 "2005-03-23T21:45:03Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > even if it’s only blinking our eyes to signifiy yes or no to a question You do realize that she is far beyond this state right? > [@](#): > > Yet what most of us say is what Terri said. It’s not specific enough, especially when the words come from a young, healthy woman, for whom death is far off in the future. _Who_ exactly would want to live if they were in her current state? I think anybody in her shoes would want to go with some dignity. Am I wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misery_Loves_Co)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/486 "2005-03-23T21:49:32Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Terri Schiavo is _not_ in a coma. **Again** because people seem to be missing this. And with some code-sarcasm because maybe then they won’t just skip over the paragraphs. Terri Schiavo is **NOT** in a coma. Terri Schiavo is _NOT_ in a coma. Coma? That’s not what Terri Schiavo’s in. She’s in a **P** erpetually **V** egetative **S** tate PVS != coma PVS \<\> coma They are not the same thing. Refer to Shayna’s post again. And after that, read and re-read every post by **eleanorigby** and **DoctorJ** on this topic, because they’ve already gone over the distinction many times, and with great detail. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/487 "2005-03-23T21:51:10Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > _Who_ exactly would want to live if they were in her current state? I think anybody in her shoes would want to go with some dignity. Am I wrong? You’re right. Apologies all 'round for my posts – my thinking on this has gone in circles, from “let her die as she would wish” to “let her parents take responsibility” to “maybe there’ll be a miracle”. It’s hard (for me, anyway) to think rationally about this. Thanks for listening, and responding. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/488 "2005-03-23T21:53:13Z")
> [@Misery Loves Co.](#): > > Being in a state like you describe is not what living wills are about. What you are describing is a conscious, aware person who’s being kept alive by machines. In that state, no-one would dream of pulling the plug - indeed, it would be illegal, (IANAL) and in fact, to do so might constitute assisted suicide, rather than the issue that is being discussed here. I don’t think even in that case it would be illegal-people have a right to refuse medical treatment for themselves-and it’s not considered assisted suicide. ---
**Author:** ![Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misery_Loves_Co)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/489 "2005-03-23T21:57:07Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > It’s hard (for me, anyway) to think rationally about this. Well, it’s unpleasant for anyone to concieve of. Just look at the Schindlers, for chrissakes. It’s been 15 years and they’re still not thinking rationally about it. ---
**Author:** ![Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misery_Loves_Co)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/490 "2005-03-23T21:58:16Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I don’t think even in that case it would be illegal-people have a right to refuse medical treatment for themselves-and it’s not considered assisted suicide. Quite right - my bad and thanks for the correction. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/491 "2005-03-23T22:13:26Z")
I’d like to see them try the National Guard. Imagine the public reaction to that one. Considering that this is Florida, they can bust in there with full gear (maybe even taking Janet Reno along for the ride) and we can have a whole new series of Flash cartoons like [this](http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view.php?id=266) one. (Work safe, though there are some not work safe links in the major site, but none on the page.) ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/492 "2005-03-23T22:32:45Z")
The “new information” is actually a doctor who did examine Terri: Dr. William Hammesfahr. He was one of the parent’s doctors in the 2001 case. If you read his report, however, you’ll note that his diagnosis that Terri was responsive is based on an absurdly low standard for what counted as a “hit” (i.e. a response to a command). I.e., he would ask her about 80 times to close her eyes, and when she did it several minutes after he asked, this counted as a “hit” (a sign of responsiveness). Viewing the full tapes of his sessions reveals this: hundreds of commands of all sorts are given, and a few movements, consistent with the movements Terri makes all the time anyway, in no consistent time proximity to the commands, are counted as her responding. This is why the courts did not find him credible the first time around. How this becomes “new evidence” is beyond me. He currently wants to treat her with a drug used for Alzheimers which is, to say the least, bizarre and has no clinical evidence behind it for this sort of patient. He claims he’s “Nobel-nominated” but that’s because he wrote to his Congressman, and his Congressman wrote the Nobel Committee to nominate him for “The Nobel Peace Prize in Medicine” (and award which doesn’t actually exist). This is, suffice to say, not the normal mechnism of nomination (not to mention the names of actual nominees are kept secret for 50 years). Here’s the nominating letter. [http://www.hnionline.com/nobel\_prize\_nomination.htm](http://www.hnionline.com/nobel_prize_nomination.htm) Here’s the fisking of all the hubbub over his near-miss Nobel prize. [http://mediamatters.org/items/200503220009](http://mediamatters.org/items/200503220009) Here’s Hammesfahr getting knocked back down to the status of an intern for six months in 2003 over another matter on which he was disciplined for exploiting a patient for financial gain (i.e. not actually providing services paid for in this case): [http://www.doh.state.fl.us/mqa/FinalOrders/03-17-03/DOH-03-0182.pdf](http://www.doh.state.fl.us/mqa/FinalOrders/03-17-03/DOH-03-0182.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/493 "2005-03-23T22:38:55Z")
Thanks for the link to the ruling, **Shayna**. I actually feel a bit silly for not being able to work out what the Schindlers hoped to accomplish by trying to prove that she was actually MCS. On reflection, it’s pretty obvious. They could then have Terri “decide for herself,” during a period where she’s vocalizing. Another tape of Mr. Schindler interjecting questions in between her reflexive groans (uh, I mean, “conversing with her during a lucid moment,”) would appear, right? > [@](#): > > Dad: Can you hear me, Terri? > Terri: Aaaaaaannnngh > Dad: Have you been following the news about your case for the last 15 years? > Terri: Aaaaaaannnngh > Dad: Do you have an opinion about it? > Terri: Aaaaaaannnngh > Dad: Do you want to live? > Terri: Aaaaaaannnngh > Dad: Has Michael been lying all this time? > Terri: Aaaaaaannnngh > Dad: Has he ever hurt you? > Terri: Aaaaaaannnngh > Dad: Has he ever tried to _murder_ you? > Terri: Aaaaaaannnngh > Dad: Do you want to press charges? > Terri: Aaaaaaannnngh ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/494 "2005-03-23T22:42:11Z")
Here’s Tom Delay. Looks like even in losing the case, they win the REAL battle: politics: [http://thinkprogress.org/index.php?p=503](http://thinkprogress.org/index.php?p=503) > [@](#): > > The point is, it’s, the other side has figured out how to win and defeat the conservative movement. And that is to go after people, personally charge them with frivolous charges, and link that up with all these do-gooder organizations funded by George Soros, and then, and then get the national media on their side. That whole syndicate that they have going on right now is for one purpose and one purpose only and that’s to destroy the conservative movement. It’s to destroy conservative leaders and it’s, uh, not just in elected office but leading. I mean Ed Feulner, today at the Heritage Foundation, was under attack in the National Journal. I mean they, they, this is a huge nationwide concerted effort to destroy everything we believe in, and, and you need to look at this and what’s going on and participate in fighting back. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/495 "2005-03-23T22:45:49Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > Here’s Tom Delay. Looks like even in losing the case, they win the REAL battle: politics: > > [http://thinkprogress.org/index.php?p=503](http://thinkprogress.org/index.php?p=503) He didn’t just basically assert the existence of A Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy, did he? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/496 "2005-03-23T22:58:04Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > He didn’t just basically assert the existence of A Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy, did he? No, it is a vast Left Wing _Syndicate_. That’s much worse than a Conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![abbeytxs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@abbeytxs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abbeytxs)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/497 "2005-03-23T23:16:38Z")
I know this makes me a horrible person, I can live with that, but I would like to see the people who keep trying to break in to the hospice to give Terri food and water succeed. So that when they pour the water down her throat and she quite literally chokes to death, those people can be tried for murder. The irony of that would keep my happy for days! ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/498 "2005-03-23T23:24:59Z")
> [@abbeytxs](#): > > I know this makes me a horrible person, I can live with that, but I would like to see the people who keep trying to break in to the hospice to give Terri food and water succeed. So that when they pour the water down her throat and she quite literally chokes to death, those people can be tried for murder. The irony of that would keep my happy for days! I halfway expect to see this plot on South Park soon. ---
**Author:** ![abbeytxs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@abbeytxs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/abbeytxs)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/499 "2005-03-23T23:27:27Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > I halfway expect to see this plot on South Park soon. I’ve never seen it, but I may have to check it out, soon. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/500 "2005-03-23T23:30:55Z")
I was wrong: it’s not Hammesfahr that’s the new evidence after all (forgive me, since Hammesfahr has been going around claiming that he has explosive new evidence, so I assumed it was one and the same) It’s William Polk Cheshire. Here’s his affidavit: [http://www.nationalreview.com/pdf/Affidavit.pdf](http://www.nationalreview.com/pdf/Affidavit.pdf) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029.md?page=26)