# Let the poor woman die already! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 17, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029 "2005-03-17T19:11:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2005, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/501 "2005-03-23T23:42:41Z")
While medical experts chew on that, the rest of us can chew on this: our representatives in their own words: stupid or just dumb? > **[Hubris.](https://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2005/03/hubris.html#more)** > > By Katherine (posted by Edward) I’ve been struggling unsuccessfully to explain why I am so furious about and disturbed by Congress’ actions in the Schiavo case. So I decided to follow the first rule of writing: show, don’t tell. The... ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/502 "2005-03-24T00:06:39Z")
What, nothing to say about Cheshire? He does raise some new points worth discussing. And now there’s this: [http://www.nationalreview.com/pdf/Petition%20for%20Intervention%20in%20Schiavo%20Case.pdf](http://www.nationalreview.com/pdf/Petition%20for%20Intervention%20in%20Schiavo%20Case.pdf) Jeb wants the case taken up along the angle of abuse claims and an ongoing investigation into them. I’ve heard that Greer has already turned down one such petition, or maybe it was this one in particular. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/503 "2005-03-24T00:11:01Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > I was wrong: it’s not Hammesfahr that’s the new evidence after all (forgive me, since Hammesfahr has been going around claiming that he has explosive new evidence, so I assumed it was one and the same) > > It’s William Polk Cheshire. > > Here’s his affidavit: > [http://www.nationalreview.com/pdf/Affidavit.pdf](http://www.nationalreview.com/pdf/Affidavit.pdf) These fuckers piss me off so bad. I just read that affidavit and I cannot believe this fuckwad is allowed to practice medicine. Thank Eir I don’t live in that shithole of a state and never have to worry about him being responsible for my care. He simply doesn’t _get it_. He spent all of 90 minutes with the woman several years ago, and everything else he supposes is based on videotapes he continually admits show inconsistent responses. He found that she “did not demonstrate… conscious awarenesss,” “[her] neurologic signs are in many ways ambiguous,” and she “did not develop a yes/no communication system,” yet still tries to pass her off as being “minimally conscious.” BUT, even if every word of his “diagnosis by videotape” were 100% true and accurate, that doesn’t negate the **legal finding of fact that she made clear and convincing oral statements that she would not want to live in this condition**. THAT is the crux of the matter. All of his moral posturing is utterly irrelevant (and completely contemptuous, IMO). I feel sorry for this quack’s patients. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/504 "2005-03-24T00:12:16Z")
Well, the Florida senate has adjourned for the Easter break, but not before denying the passage of the “If It’s Not In Writing We Get to Force Feed You” bill. Judge Greer has denied DCF’s request to take custody of Terri. It’s a conspiracy, I tell ya! A vast right-wing conspiracy! (And I say that as a member of the libertarian arm of the right wing) My fear is that her funeral/memorial service will turn into a bloodbath. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/505 "2005-03-24T00:18:57Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > While medical experts chew on that, the rest of us can chew on this: > > our representatives in their own words: stupid or just dumb? > > [Obsidian Wings: Hubris.](http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2005/03/hubris.html#more) :mad: I’m shaking with anger that these jackasses are running my country. There is so much false information in those statements, it would take 1,000 hours to debunk every line of fucking bullshit and outright lies. I will not be the least bit surprised if Mr. Schaivo is greeted by the police, handcuffed, carted off to jail and charged with murder as he exits is deceased wife’s room. I hate these motherfuckers with every fiber of my being. ---
**Author:** ![WolfpackJeep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpackjeep/32/2921_2.png) [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/506 "2005-03-24T00:24:06Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > My fear is that her funeral/memorial service will turn into a bloodbath. Honestly, I’m surprised that none of these right-to-lifers have tried to attack Michael or torch his house. I’d be really concerned if that many people were camped out on my front lawn all the time… ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/507 "2005-03-24T00:26:57Z")
I imagine it’s not going to be a huge funeral. Probably something VERY lo-key, to avoid all the fuss. Damn, I pity the funeral directors who have to deal with the parents. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/508 "2005-03-24T00:30:25Z")
> [@](#): > > My fear is that her funeral/memorial service will turn into a bloodbath. I can’t imagine that there will be only one service. Which begs the even tougher question: if she dies, who gets to control the fate of her body? Apparently Michael, since he and the family apparently disagree about cremation vs. burial as well. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/509 "2005-03-24T00:34:01Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > Which begs the even tougher question: if she dies, who gets to control the fate of her body? Apparently Michael, since he and the family apparently disagree about cremation vs. burial as well. Great. Another round of lawsuits. If Michael were smart, he’d allow an autopsy to settle the questions once and for all before cremation. Otherwise I fear he will always be a hunted man. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/510 "2005-03-24T00:37:00Z")
I assume that when she actually dies, the body will be released to her husband. Wouldn’t he be within his rights to insist on a private, by invitation only service? Or no service at all, for that matter. I wouldn’t want her parents within fifty miles of any funeral. This entire mess should serve as proof positive to anyone with two operating brain cells that are no limits to the hypocracy of our fearless leaders and their toadies. How any of these people can garner even one vote in the next election escapes me. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/511 "2005-03-24T00:42:17Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > I assume that when she actually dies, the body will be released to her husband. Wouldn’t he be within his rights to insist on a private, by invitation only service? Or no service at all, for that matter. Her parents are free to hold a memorial service, _sans_ remains. It is only fitting, as they have been chatting with a daughter _sans_ brain for 15 years. ---
**Author:** ![brossa](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brossa/32/3040_2.png) [@brossa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brossa)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/512 "2005-03-24T00:43:44Z")
From Cheshire’s affadavit: > [@](#): > > Although Terri did not demonstrate during our 90 minute visit compelling evidence of verbalization, conscious awareness or volitional behavior, yet the visitor has a distinct sense of the presence of a living human being who seems at some level to be aware of some things around her. Forgive me if I find this to be an underwhelming argument. Where is the new evidence again? I’m also angered by the calls for additional studies like PET scans or functional MRIs. These are being held out as ‘diagnostic’ tests that will establish whether Schiavo is in a PVS as opposed to, say, just really, really lazy. I have several problems with this. For one, PVS is a CLINICAL DIAGNOSIS that is made based on observed signs and symptoms. There is no ‘lab test’ for PVS. While it is possible to perform any number of additional lab or imaging studies on a patient with PVS, there is no consensus regarding the value or meaning of such studies. It’s easy to say “Well, just do one more test”, but if you can’t agree ahead of time on what the results signify, there is no point in doing the test. If a PET scan, a fMRI, and a CT showed that her entire brain had been surgically removed but her EEG shows some interesting activity, the Schindlers and the Repubs would cling to the EEG results. These are not really quantitative tests anyway (well, in a sense, but let me explain). If a PET scan shows that Terri has 13% as much brain metabolic activity in a particular area as a normal person at ‘rest’, and it jumps to 19% when her parents are speaking but only 16% when random noise is played, how are we to interpret the _meaning_ of those results. Oh, and now add in that some other brain structure (don’t know what it is exactly cause the anatomy is now so screwed up) is running at 90% of normal. What then? None of these tests change her _clinical_ status. The other thing that pisses me off here is that there is no political downside for the Republicans here. The leadership must have known going into this mess that it was a win-win situation for them. If the courts knuckle under and toe the line, reinserting the tube and maybe throwing Michael Schiavo in jail for good measure, then the Congressional majority are heroes. OTOH, if the activist judges defy the will of Congress, well, by Og, Whittemore might as well have walked over to the hospice and smothered Schiavo with a pillow on his way to performing a partial birth abortion so a lesbian terrorist can burn the American flag without looking ‘fat’ on the liberal-controlled TV. Damn that Clinton! Jeb in '08! ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/513 "2005-03-24T00:46:51Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > Great. Another round of lawsuits. If Michael were smart, he’d allow an autopsy to settle the questions once and for all before cremation. Otherwise I fear he will always be a hunted man. No, because it wouldn’t matter to these people. Whatever the pathologist’s conclusions come to won’t be good enough. The path will be pushing an agenda. Robin ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/514 "2005-03-24T00:48:45Z")
If she dies on Good Friday, we will never hear the end of it. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/515 "2005-03-24T01:07:37Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > If she dies on Good Friday, we will never hear the end of it. A thought that’s been haunting me ever since last Friday. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/516 "2005-03-24T01:12:29Z")
I think Friday is definitely too soon-it’ll be another couple of weeks, probably. I’m just waiting for her parents to pop up on Sunday and say-“Hallaluiah! Terri blew a spit bubble!!!” ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/517 "2005-03-24T01:15:25Z")
What if she dies on Friday and comes back on Sunday? ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/518 "2005-03-24T01:19:55Z")
> [@brossa](#): > > Forgive me if I find this to be an underwhelming argument. Where is the new evidence again? Wow, no shit. When I heard the first rumblings of this I expected that there wouldn’t be much behind it, but I had no idea it would be this bad. “She doesn’t show any evidence of being aware or responsive, but she sure looks like she is.” Thanks, Doc–that’s practically the damn _definition_ of a PVS. I fear that we are going to reach a critical mass of _chutzpah_ before this is all over. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > I think Friday is definitely too soon-it’ll be another couple of weeks, probably. I doubt it would be that long. I wouldn’t be surprised if it were tonight, but I’d be surprised if she held on for more than another week. ---
**Author:** ![FaerieBeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e95f7d/32.png) [@FaerieBeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FaerieBeth)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/519 "2005-03-24T01:22:25Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > What if she dies on Friday and comes back on Sunday? I am quite convinced her parents are just crazy enough to believe she could come back from the dead. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/520 "2005-03-24T01:22:26Z")
Remember it’s almost a week now, and two weeks is the maximum quoted by most doctors. So “another two weeks, at a minimum,” isn’t accurate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029.md?page=27)