# Let the poor woman die already! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 17, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029 "2005-03-17T19:11:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/541 "2005-03-24T02:54:22Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > I’ve been thinking about this analogy, and I’m not sure that it’s appropriate. So here I am, posting again, when I told myself I wouldn’t. > > Addressing the issue of Michael’s responsibility to Terri – is there a reasonable limit to carrying out someone’s last wishes? > > Using your analogy, of course the family should do what grandma wants, if they can. > > But what if they can’t? What if grandma died in California, and grandpa was buried in Florida, and there was no money to fly grandma’s body to Florida? Hell, what if the family couldn’t afford a basic funeral, what if cremation was all they could pay for? Would grandma want the family to go into debt to carry out her wishes? > > Assume even further that grandma’s sole surviving relative was a single mom on welfare. Should she rob the 7-11? Turn tricks? She’d like to do what grandma wanted, but she can’t – where does her responsibility end? > > Michael Schiavo has done the best he can to carry out what he believes Terri would have wanted. His resolve is amazing. He’s even gone up against the President of the United States. You don’t think Terri would cut him some slack? > > What if the court decisions had gone against him? Would his responsibility end then, or would you expect him to abuse the legal system as the Schindlers have done? > > I don’t doubt that he would have. The Schindlers might be deluded that there is hope for Terri, but Michael just might have some issues too. There are charities-Catholic priests would probably be willing to help a devout Catholic obtain the funeral of his or her wishes. My dad’s a funeral director-he can advise the family of cost cutting, payment plans, etc. The point isn’t about the money, and not being ABLE to do so, it’s about deliberately ignoring someone’s last wishes, which you PROMISED to fulfill, simply because it’s not convenient to you. That’s wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/542 "2005-03-24T03:32:22Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > Doesn’t he have another family now? Is it not true that he’s with another woman, and they have two children? Or did I hear that wrong? Yes. But this fact seems a lot less damning when you hear that the Schindlers (Terri’s parents) encouraged him to “move on” with his life and to date other people. You see, before they realized that it might mean Terri wouldn’t be kept alive forever, they seemed to accept that she wasn’t coming back and was in a PVS. ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/543 "2005-03-24T03:44:09Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > Doesn’t he have another family now? Is it not true that he’s with another woman, and they have two children? Or did I hear that wrong? Michael and Terri are no longer equals in the partnership of marriage. Michael is acting out his responsibilities as husband by carrying out Terri’s wishes, meanwhile Terri is incapable of being any kind of wife to him. Perhaps **you** think he should be making love to her and taking her for long drives in the country, but I think that would be grotesque. Michael is entitled to companionship and love, as much as any other widower. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/544 "2005-03-24T03:50:41Z")
> [@brossa](#): > > Forgive me if I find this to be an underwhelming argument. Where is the new evidence again? I actually thought he raised some decent points that at least deserved addressing, including the apparent anticipation of pain, repeated leg movements, and whether there is really any consistency to her dememour/personality changing when someone she knows enters the room (though, given that most of these same people admit that she’s probably near blind, it must all be voice based). > [@](#): > > I’m also angered by the calls for additional studies like PET scans or functional MRIs. These are being held out as ‘diagnostic’ tests that will establish whether Schiavo is in a PVS as opposed to, say, just really, really lazy. I have several problems with this. For one, PVS is a CLINICAL DIAGNOSIS that is made based on observed signs and symptoms. There is no ‘lab test’ for PVS. And rightly so. PVS basically implies that your high brain functions are damaged. But obviously, because they consist of such complex functional connections, there are many many ways for them to be damaged to an extent that causes PVS. So there cannot be any possible single one sort or location of damage that leads to the condition. And that’s part of the thing that the “more test!” people are relying on here: the idea that since there is no particular CT that would prove PVS, her CT isn’t sufficient: we need an MRI! Or a PET scan! What they don’t mention is that those tests wouldn’t be sufficient either. And, in fact, they are mostly moot, because Terri’s brain damage is far more extensive than that. Whereas a sufferer of PVS might have fine damage you could see better on an MRI, Terri’s problem isn’t small areas of damage that disable her higher functions, it’s large sections of her brain completely missing or squished out of the way by fluid. > [@](#): > > EEG shows some interesting activity I’ve heard RUMORS that her EEG shows little to no cortical activity at all no matter what the stimulus (making it pointless to try and measure whether it is higher or lower for particular stimuli). But I can’t substantiate it, and it would probably be confidential info that cannot be confirmed. But if true, that might explain why the doctors who have dealt with her full record have been so convinced, and those that simply visit her have doubts. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/545 "2005-03-24T03:56:06Z")
Judge Greer will rule on a new hearing based on Dr. Cheshire’s testimony by noon tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/546 "2005-03-24T03:57:20Z")
> [@kung fu lola](#): > > Michael and Terri are no longer equals in the partnership of marriage. Michael is acting out his responsibilities as husband by carrying out Terri’s wishes, meanwhile Terri is incapable of being any kind of wife to him. Perhaps **you** think he should be making love to her and taking her for long drives in the country, but I think that would be grotesque. > > Michael is entitled to companionship and love, as much as any other widower. Whoa, that’s not what I meant when I responded to Shayna’s post. She said that Michael was honoring his marriage vows by carrying out Terri’s wishes. Before I asked Shayna why Michael is allowed (or compelled) to honor some vows (keep your promises) but not others (cleave only unto your wife), I wanted to know for sure if what I had heard about his other family was true. I have no problem with Michael moving on. ---
**Author:** ![widdleytinks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a4c791/32.png) [@widdleytinks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/widdleytinks)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/547 "2005-03-24T04:31:47Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > Before I asked Shayna why Michael is allowed (or compelled) to honor some vows (keep your promises) but not others (cleave only unto your wife), I wanted to know for sure if what I had heard about his other family was true. > > I have no problem with Michael moving on. Please define “cleave”. regards, widdley ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/548 "2005-03-24T04:45:17Z")
Cleave? Well, the word was in **my** marriage vows, but then I’m an old fart. 🙂 It’s a promise to be faithful to your spouse. Before someone jumps on me because I don’t know what Terri and Michael’s wedding vows were, I think a promise of fidelity is pretty standard. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/549 "2005-03-24T04:49:27Z")
> [@widdleytinks](#): > > Please define “cleave”. In this context, it means “be attached to.” It seems a bit counterintuitive, since the opposite meaning is much more common. To understand why it can mean both, consider the cleft of a tree. It’s simultaneously a point of joining and separation. ---
**Author:** ![widdleytinks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a4c791/32.png) [@widdleytinks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/widdleytinks)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/550 "2005-03-24T05:11:35Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > Cleave? Well, the word was in **my** marriage vows, but then I’m an old fart. 🙂 > > It’s a promise to be faithful to your spouse. > > Before someone jumps on me because I don’t know what Terri and Michael’s wedding vows were, I think a promise of fidelity is pretty standard. So are the words “love, honor, and cherish”, Auntie. I can think of no man who would have stood by his wife for 15 years in the face of such strong opposition as has Michael Schiavo. Believe me when I tell you that up until about 3 weeks ago, I held the same perspectives and raised the same issues as you have here. regards, widdley ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/551 "2005-03-24T05:33:49Z")
What I meant was that it is physically impossible for Michael to keep those particular vows. As a wife, Terri is dead, and so Michael regains his right to “cleave” onto another woman. ---
**Author:** ![Gymnopithys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/fbc32d/32.png) [@Gymnopithys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gymnopithys)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/552 "2005-03-24T11:55:55Z")
Are her parents and sister absolutely certain she is not horribly suffering, if not physically, perhaps morally ? ---
**Author:** ![Mycroft\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/898d66/32.png) [@Mycroft\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mycroft_H)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/553 "2005-03-24T12:03:29Z")
> [@Wile E](#): > > Jeb hasn’t visited her. I saw Michael Schiavo on the news a couple nights ago and he said that he invited Jeb to visit Terri when he first butted into this (well, he didn’t phrase it that way) and he has also invited Dubya, too. You’d think they’d be jumping at the chance to talk to Terri and hear how she wants to be kept on a feeding tube. Thanks **Wile E** , that’s what I expected. Just another example of politicians (of all stripes) loooking lik ethey care all in an effort to pander to hoped-for voters. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/554 "2005-03-24T12:20:22Z")
> [@Gymnopithys](#): > > Are her parents and sister absolutely certain she is not horribly suffering, if not physically, perhaps morally ? If she lacks the capacity for physical suffering, I think it’s safe to say that she’s not suffering morally. Robin ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/555 "2005-03-24T12:36:37Z")
> [@FaerieBeth](#): > > I am quite convinced her parents are just crazy enough to believe she could come back from the dead. If she does come back, I hope she bites her parents brains out and then puts the parents on a feeding tube for fifteen years. ---
**Author:** ![fiercesheep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@fiercesheep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiercesheep)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/556 "2005-03-24T12:51:24Z")
I don’t post often (practically never) but this case has sickened me so much I felt I would brave the fray. I have read all 11 odd pages of this thread (and the links); I’m convinced that the poor woman is PVS and ain’t coming back. I’ve tried to have compassion for the Schindlers but I just can’t … I can buy (almost) the idea that they are delusion and really do believe that she is aware but Jebus Christ; it’s been 15 years! Why a friend, priest, therapist, medical professional, random sane person didn’t take them to one side about 14 years ago and have a quiet word (i.e. when it might have done some good) is beyond me. There have been a few people asking why a husband should have more rights than parents; people have answered this question extremely well but I just thought that I would share some personal experience … about 5 years ago my now husband and I decided to get married precisely because we didn’t feel we could trust our parents to carry out our final wishes or provide us with the kind of care we would have wished for if we were comatose, PVS or whatever. My husband had been through a period of illness and his mother, a devout Roman Catholic, had persistently over-ruled his and my wishes as equally devout non-believers (if that’s possible!) and demanded priests be at his bedside etc. I, of course, could nothing as I was ‘just’ his girlfriend and he was in intensive care … And this kind of behaviour, whilst wildly disrespectful of a son’s beliefs, is **trivial** in comparison to whether or not he would have wanted to persist in a PVS. I know what my husbands wishes are, and he knows mine and unless we divorce that’s just the way it is. I don’t know if I would have the strength to do for my husband what Michael has done for Terri but I hope so; as far as I can see the man is as close to being a saint as I can imagine. Just my 0.2c ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/557 "2005-03-24T13:01:19Z")
It’s my understanding that Terri cannot have an MRI because there is some sort of metal in her skull? Also, that an MRI would not show anything definitive, that a CAT scan is more helpful in this matter, and that the CAT scan shows Terri’s brain is mush. When she dies she will be a martyr for the Right to Life crowd. She will never rest in peace. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/558 "2005-03-24T13:34:14Z")
> [@brossa](#): > > I’m also angered by the calls for additional studies like PET scans or functional MRIs. These are being held out as ‘diagnostic’ tests that will establish whether Schiavo is in a PVS as opposed to, say, just really, really lazy. > > The other thing that pisses me off here is that there is no political downside for the Republicans here. The leadership must have known going into this mess that it was a win-win situation for them. If the courts knuckle under and toe the line, reinserting the tube and maybe throwing Michael Schiavo in jail for good measure, then the Congressional majority are heroes. > > OTOH, if the activist judges defy the will of Congress, well, by Og, Whittemore might as well have walked over to the hospice and smothered Schiavo with a pillow on his way to performing a partial birth abortion so a lesbian terrorist can burn the American flag without looking ‘fat’ on the liberal-controlled TV. Damn that Clinton! Jeb in '08! I am laughing as I type! Thanks for the comic relief. I have been at work–man, you all type/post fast! 3 more pages in 24 hours. I don’t really have anything to add re: her care etc. This has all become so bizarre, that it beggars understanding. Didn’t realize that I typed “funderal” instead of funeral. Seriously–I cannot see MS and the Schindler’s coming together over the grave. And that is truly tragic, because they all loved Terri. I’ll hazard a guess that she didn’t want any of this to happen. I also don’t see this(oh, how I wish I did!) as a lose for the conservatives–they get to be all high and mighty and say ''well, we really tried to celebrate a culture of life here, and just look at those nasty Democrats and activist judges! Why, when you’re on a breating machine–they’ll pull a Kervorkian on you, too!" And for the simple minded, to whom following the legal principles is just too much (aka most of America)–they will shake their heads in fear and wonder and vote GOP. Speaking of evil people etc–anyone else have vague jokes forming on the edges of their minds re: Schindler’s and Schindle’s List etc–I swear there is joke there, it just won’t surface! The neurologist at work is practically foaming at the mouth–as is every staff nurse and medical person I ran into yesterday. It is beyond comprehension at this point. And I am starting to get ticked re: the cost of all this. How many cases are being delayed etc so that the courts ahve to deal with this shit? It’s been decided, definitively and then some–they should be barred from future cases (can that be done?). ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/559 "2005-03-24T13:39:18Z")
[QUOTE=eleanorigby The neurologist at work is practically foaming at the mouth–as is every staff nurse and medical person I ran into yesterday. It is beyond comprehension at this point. [/QUOTE] But but but…the Nobel prize nominated neurologist saw the videotapes! The nurses saw Terri respond and appear shaken and clammy after Michael left her! Your co-workers aren’t looking at the evidence the right way! :rolleyes: The single-minded bias and refusal to even entertain the other side’s views is unbelievable. And the visciousness and hatred directed toward Michael…I’m starting to fear for his life. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/560 "2005-03-24T13:43:33Z")
> [@fiercesheep](#): > > I don’t post often (practically never) but this case has sickened me so much I felt I would brave the fray. > > I have read all 11 odd pages of this thread (and the links); I’m convinced that the poor woman is PVS and ain’t coming back. I’ve tried to have compassion for the Schindlers but I just can’t … I can buy (almost) the idea that they are delusion and really do believe that she is aware but Jebus Christ; it’s been 15 years! Why a friend, priest, therapist, medical professional, random sane person didn’t take them to one side about 14 years ago and have a quiet word (i.e. when it might have done some good) is beyond me. > > There have been a few people asking why a husband should have more rights than parents; people have answered this question extremely well but I just thought that I would share some personal experience … about 5 years ago my now husband and I decided to get married precisely because we didn’t feel we could trust our parents to carry out our final wishes or provide us with the kind of care we would have wished for if we were comatose, PVS or whatever. My husband had been through a period of illness and his mother, a devout Roman Catholic, had persistently over-ruled his and my wishes as equally devout non-believers (if that’s possible!) and demanded priests be at his bedside etc. I, of course, could nothing as I was ‘just’ his girlfriend and he was in intensive care … And this kind of behaviour, whilst wildly disrespectful of a son’s beliefs, is **trivial** in comparison to whether or not he would have wanted to persist in a PVS. > > I know what my husbands wishes are, and he knows mine and unless we divorce that’s just the way it is. I don’t know if I would have the strength to do for my husband what Michael has done for Terri but I hope so; as far as I can see the man is as close to being a saint as I can imagine. > > Just my 0.2c Nice delurk! 😛 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029.md?page=29)