# Let the poor woman die already! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 17, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029 "2005-03-17T19:11:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/621 "2005-03-24T20:17:47Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > No it isn’t. The court was not just doing Michael’s bidding, nor did Michael directly ask the court to pull the feeding tube. He asked the court to make a determination as to Terri’s wishes and the court did that based on hearings and testimony. It’s a huge difference. It’s also wrong. From [here](http://www.miami.edu/ethics2/schiavo/timeline.htm): > [@](#): > > May 1998 > Michael Schiavo petitions the court to authorize the removal of Terri Schiavo’s PEG tube Not, “Michael petitions the court to determine what Terri’s wishes would have been.” In the course of deciding whether to authorize the removal, the court had to make that determination, but Michael as Terri’s guardian had to make a decision that it was time to disconnect and then ask the court to be allowed to proceed. Some other selected snippets: > [@](#): > > April 30, 2001 > Michael Schiavo files an emergency motion with the 2nd DCA to allow the removal of Terri Schiavo’s PEG tube. > > August 7, 2001 > After the 2nd DCA remands the case back to Judge Greer, he again finds that Michael Schiavo may remove Terri Schiavo’s PEG tube on August 28. > > December 23, 2002 > The 2nd DCA denies a motion Michael Schiavo filed seeking permission to remove the PEG tube. > > June 6, 2003 > The 2nd DCA, affirming Judge Greer’s November 2002 ruling, concludes that Michael Schiavo can remove Terri Schiavo’s PEG tube on October 15. > > July 11, 2001 > (3) The 2nd DCA denies Michael Schiavo’s request to discontinue the PEG tube. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/622 "2005-03-24T20:18:43Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > In the last half hour, CNN reported that the parents have pulled something else out of the hat, which is being decided tonight. I didn’t quite catch it – (I was doing dishes) – although I _think_ it’s another custody hearing – but the talking head said something like “Although we’ve reported that the Schindlers have run out of legal options, if there’s one thing this case has taught us, it’s ‘Never say never.’” > > Anyone have useful details on this? There’s nothing up on [CNN.com](http://CNN.com) yet. As much as I hate to give them hits, what about [her parents’ website](http://www.terrisfight.org/)? ---
**Author:** ![Honey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honey/32/5074_2.png) [@Honey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honey)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/623 "2005-03-24T20:21:15Z")
They are requesting a temporary restraining order. The hearing is at 6pm. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![brownie55](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f14d63/32.png) [@brownie55](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brownie55)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/624 "2005-03-24T20:26:00Z")
I am sorry, from which court? ---
**Author:** ![Honey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honey/32/5074_2.png) [@Honey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honey)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/625 "2005-03-24T20:32:23Z")
> [@](#): > > The Schindlers’ attorneys said they planned to request a temporary restraining order so new evidence could be introduced in federal court. A hearing was set for 6 p.m. EST. From [foxnews](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,151347,00.html) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/626 "2005-03-24T20:33:07Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > It’s also wrong. From [here](http://www.miami.edu/ethics2/schiavo/timeline.htm): > Not, “Michael petitions the court to determine what Terri’s wishes would have been.” In the course of deciding whether to authorize the removal, the court had to make that determination, but Michael as Terri’s guardian had to make a decision that it was time to disconnect and then ask the court to be allowed to proceed. > > Some other selected snippets: Your cite is incorrect. Michael did not petition the court to remove the tubes but to [make a determination](http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html) as to what Terri would have wanted. > [@](#): > > Rather than make the decision himself, Michael followed a procedure permitted by Florida courts by which a surrogate such as Michael can petition a court, asking the court to act as the ward’s surrogate and determine what the ward would decide to do. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/627 "2005-03-24T20:44:36Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Your cite is incorrect. Michael did not petition the court to remove the tubes but to [make a determination](http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html) as to what Terri would have wanted. Okay, I see where it says that, but the actual court opinion (linked from the text for February 2000) starts: “This cause came to be heard upon the Petition for Authorization to Discontinue Artificial Life Support and Suggestion for Appointment of Guardian ad Litem.” Throughout the rest of the document, Michael is consistenly referred to as “Petitioner”. Am I missing something or is requesting authorization for something not the same as asking to be allowed to do it? (By the way, this is a serious question, IANAL and realize that legal terms often have special meanings) ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/628 "2005-03-24T20:49:47Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Your cite is incorrect. Michael did not petition the court to remove the tubes but to [make a determination](http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html) as to what Terri would have wanted. I don’t agree. In 1998, Michael petitioned the courts to have his wife’s feeding tube removed. If he believed that she wanted to be kept alive, he wouldn’t have gone to the courts at all; he just would have left her as she was. Michael knew what (he believed) Terri wanted. And he knew that that differed from what her parent s thought she wanted. What I assume happened here, (no I don’t have a site) is that Michael said, “Terri wouldn’t want to live this way, we should let her die.” Her parents told the Largo nursing home “we want her to live and we’ll fight this every step of the way.” I’d image that the nursing home said, Michael, at this point, we aren’t doing a thing without a court order. Michael thought, “Well, I’ll ask the court what they think she wants and let them make a determination.” Again, if he agreed with the parents, he wouldn’t have gone to court to ask them to make a determination. I just don’t see the major difference. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/629 "2005-03-24T20:52:05Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > It’s also wrong. From [here](http://www.miami.edu/ethics2/schiavo/timeline.htm): > Not, “Michael petitions the court to determine what Terri’s wishes would have been.” In the course of deciding whether to authorize the removal, the court had to make that determination, but Michael as Terri’s guardian had to make a decision that it was time to disconnect and then ask the court to be allowed to proceed. No, the petition was specifically for an unbiased third party to determine what Terri’s wishes were. You have quite a bit of leeway with characterization when you’re authoring bulleted items on a timeline, but you don’t have that luxury with legal documents. [This is authored by the Schindlers’ own lawyers](http://www.terrisfight.org/documents/010503petregal.htm), and hosted on their website: > [@](#): > > Schiavo himself, acknowledging his own serious conflicts of interest, recognized the need for an independent voice for Terri, when he asked the Court to appoint a guardian ad litem back in May, 1998 for the duration of the adversary proceeding to end her life, See Fla. Stat. § 744.391. There’s still a bit of spin, in there, with regard to the “conflict of interest,” but it’s an accurate legal description of what that 1998 proceeding was about. He was the legal guardian, and could have simply made the decision to remove the tube. Instead, he wanted to be certain that Terri’s wishes, as determined by a neutral party, were carried out. He believed she would want an end to it. Her parents believed otherwise. He didn’t have to ask permission. Still, he gave up the authority to make the decision, and instead argued what he believed she would want and allowed the Schindlers to argue their position as well. Again and again, the courts concurred with Mr. Schiavo about _what Terri would want to happen_. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/630 "2005-03-24T20:52:34Z")
I thought that there had been 3 court appointed guardians who all came to the same conclusion as MS did–that she would want the feeding tube removed? source is NPR news, so no link. Is anyone else feeling absolutely tortured by this? And if I am feeling this–what kind of hell is Michael in? I lost my sympathy for the parents awhile back… sorry to go OT. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/631 "2005-03-24T21:15:11Z")
On reflection, there’s no “spin” on the conflict-of-interest issue… …but the appointment of a _guardian ad litem_ assured that Terri’s, not Michael’s, interests were served. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/632 "2005-03-24T21:48:16Z")
> [@sunfish](#): > > That’s true for the living will per se, but you might still be able to designate a health care proxy which specifies who gets to make your health care decisions for you. As I mentioned somewhere up thread, I’ve designated a friend to be my health care agent since I’m single and no one in my family feels they would be capable of carrying out my wishes. Btw I’m in New York State. That is a Medical Power of Attorney. My wife has one for her parents, who live in Pennsylvania, but it was valid in California. When my MIL broke her hip while visiting us, it proved very valuable. My FIL was here, but my wife was able to make the decisions and direct her care without him being dragged to the hospital or nursing home every five minutes. Thanks to the wonders of modern surrgery, she had her hip and should replaced (at 87) and now, if not fine, is in pretty good shape for 88. If you have elderly parents, it is a good thing to have. We just redid our trust and wills, and I believe we have both living wills and medical powers of attorney with several options depending on who is still around. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/633 "2005-03-24T21:49:14Z")
Aren’t some Christians going to interpret this as one of the end of days signs in Revelations, especially if she dies on Friday? I don’t generally have a very good handle on the various strains of end of days theology, but I do remember the awful awful movie “Seven Signs” or whatever it was counting the “execution” of some innocent person as one of the major signs. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/634 "2005-03-24T21:53:28Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > Aren’t some Christians going to interpret this as one of the end of days signs in Revelations, especially if she dies on Friday? I don’t generally have a very good handle on the various strains of end of days theology, but I do remember the awful awful movie “Seven Signs” or whatever it was counting the “execution” of some innocent person as one of the major signs. Geez…if the execution of an innocent person was a sign of the apocalypse, it would’ve come at least once a year for the last several tens of millennia. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2005, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/635 "2005-03-24T22:20:49Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I think **spifflog** ’s question is more along the lines of: is there generally any impediment to a person drafting a Living Will that specifically grants decision-making powers to someone other than the legal next-of-kin? > > I’d be very surprised if there turned out to be one. I don’t know about legal impediments, but I do know an old friend of mine has designated the man who’s been his partner for over a decade as the person who makes decisions, followed by me as a back up. Neither of us are legally related to him in any way shape or form, but this fellow has been my friend since 5th grade and we know each other well and trust each other. CJ ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/636 "2005-03-25T02:03:55Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > Aren’t some Christians going to interpret this as one of the end of days signs in Revelations, especially if she dies on Friday? I don’t generally have a very good handle on the various strains of end of days theology, but I do remember the awful awful movie “Seven Signs” or whatever it was counting the “execution” of some innocent person as one of the major signs. Maybe you’re thinking of the [Two Witnesses](http://members.aol.com/Wisdomway/revelations2.htm#anchor2710050), whose bodies will lie in the streets of Jerusalem for three and a half days before they rise from the dead? More from Jebus Bush: the solution to the problem is to give him more power! [quote=Jebus Bush] “It is frustrating for people to think that I have power that I don’t, and not be able to act,” he said. "I don’t have embedded special powers. I wish I did in this particular case."Who will rid Jebus of this meddlesome judicial branch? ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/637 "2005-03-25T02:05:11Z")
Who will rid me of this troublesome coding? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/638 "2005-03-25T02:39:53Z")
The bomb squad has been called out to respond to a suspicious package left at the courthouse where the latest hearing was taking place, and they’ve evacuated the building. Culture of life! Woot! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/639 "2005-03-25T02:55:31Z")
[QUOTE=vibrotronica] Maybe you’re thinking of the [Two Witnesses](http://members.aol.com/Wisdomway/revelations2.htm#anchor2710050), whose bodies will lie in the streets of Jerusalem for three and a half days before they rise from the dead? More from Jebus Bush: the solution to the problem is to give him more power! > [@Jebus Bush](#): > > “It is frustrating for people to think that I have power that I don’t, and not be able to act,” he said. "I don’t have embedded special powers. I wish I did in this particular case."Who will rid Jebus of this meddlesome judicial branch? [Here you go.](http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050325/ap_on_re_us/schiavo_jeb_bush_1) Schiavo’s parents are starting to remind me of Elian’s Gonzalez’s crazy ass relatives. That happened during Easter week too, if I recall. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/640 "2005-03-25T03:01:56Z")
Jeb ought not to raise a rabble he can’t put down. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029.md?page=33)