# Let the poor woman die already! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 17, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029 "2005-03-17T19:11:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/641 "2005-03-25T03:14:40Z")
This is why we so desperately need SOTUS. This is religious fanatacism at its ugliest, most desperate and most terrifying. It’s pure, unthinking hatred, it’s villagers with pitchforks, it’s a lynch mob, it’s rampaging, idiot rabble, and it’s all being enthusiastically fanned and exploited by powerful politicians who know that playing to hate is the most dependable political strategy ever devised. The only thing that’s saving us is the one branch of government which has not yet been corrupted by theocrats but it’s only a matter of time. Look well on these good Christians making death threats against judges and trying to blow up court houses when they can’t get their way and thank the founding fathers for that wall of separation. It may not last much longer. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/642 "2005-03-25T03:26:30Z")
The parents keep appealing over and over again to the same courts, that have already ruled againest them only days ago. Isn’t the definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/643 "2005-03-25T03:28:45Z")
Socas. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/644 "2005-03-25T03:30:37Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Socas. ??? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/645 "2005-03-25T03:31:58Z")
> [@HPL](#): > > The parents keep appealing over and over again to the same courts, that have already ruled againest them only days ago. > > Isn’t the definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results? I think that’s a bit harsh. They have for years successfully gained a stay every time they’ve filed a new action. Now that the system has decided enough is enough, they are understandably having a hard time coming to grips with that. I do believe that their belief in Mrs. Schiavo’s eventual recovery is delusional, if not pathological, but still… I only hope that they can come to grips with this in time to spend loving moments with the body that used to be their daughter, and bid her farewell, goodbye, and godspeed. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/646 "2005-03-25T03:32:08Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > The bomb squad has been called out to respond to a suspicious package left at the courthouse where the latest hearing was taking place, and they’ve evacuated the building. > > Culture of life! Woot! I haven’t seen this reported anywhere. Where did you get this news? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/647 "2005-03-25T03:35:56Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > ??? I was correcting something in my previous post when I accidentally typed the acronym “SOTUS” instead of SOCAS (Separation of Church and State). “SOTUS,” of course, stands for nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Good\_Egg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/96bed5/32.png) [@Good\_Egg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Good_Egg)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/648 "2005-03-25T03:37:09Z")
Separation of the united states! Sometimes I wonder… ---
**Author:** ![Cinnamon\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@Cinnamon\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cinnamon_Girl)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/649 "2005-03-25T03:38:56Z")
I’ve been following this case for the past few days with great relief that the 15 year limbo Terri Schiavo has been subjected to is finally nearing its end. I’m not surprised at all so much controversy is swirling around this case, but it is depressing nonetheless. I can’t understand why so many people are so willing to allow her to linger for so long. 15 years is such a long time. Hope is grand and all, but there comes a time when you just have to face reality and move on. I do feel for Terri’s parents but I think they seriously need therapy. They’ve been in active denial for 15 years and have not given themselves the opportunity to grieve the loss of their daughter. The one that actually had a life at one point. She is not even in that shell of person anymore. She will never be able to stand in front of her parents and tell them what she wants. They’re desperately grasping at straws as evidenced by the recent audio of Terri and comments made by them and their lawyer. A vast conspiracy to hasten her death? After 15 years and a decade of legal wrangling??? So sad. And her husband. I cannot even begin to imagine what it would be like to live everyday seeing my spouse in such a horrifying situation and being completely helpless to do what I thought was right by him. To be unable to let go and unwilling to walk away and move on. To be villified by my in-laws and too many strangers who don’t even know me though they are so quick to judge me. To watch my spouse paraded out by family angling for sympathetic press, caretakers with an axe to grind, and politicians looking to win points from the woefully misinformed. My heart hurts. I’m not a religious person, but I do hope there is eventually some peace to be had by this unfortunate woman and her family. Godspeed, Terri. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/650 "2005-03-25T03:39:42Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > I haven’t seen this reported anywhere. Where did you get this news? It’s been on Fox News. They’ve had to clear the court house (and ironically prolong the time it will take for the judge to make a decision) because of a “suspicious package” found at the building. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/651 "2005-03-25T03:40:12Z")
By SOTUS I thought he meant “Supremes of the United States.” You know, so there wouldn’t be confusion with the Supremes of Kahlua Lumpur. Hey, they were both great singing groups. ---
**Author:** ![Cinnamon\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@Cinnamon\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cinnamon_Girl)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/652 "2005-03-25T03:48:54Z")
In any case, I forgot to posit a question that I’ve been mulling over. I can understand that withdrawing the feeding tube is not likely to cause Terri any pain given her lacking most of her cortex (and as evidenced by her unresponsiveness to pain stimuli, I would hope?) However, on the off-chance that it did cause her discomfort and to relieve the concerns of her family that she might suffer, wouldn’t it be prudent to go the morphine route as a method of passive euthanasia? If she were injected with large doses of morphine, it would prevent any suffering at all and likely depress respiration likely hastening her death in a painless manner. The family would then be spared the longer process of death by starvation/dehydration. Would that not feel a little less icky to some people? Just wondering… ---
**Author:** ![Good\_Egg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/96bed5/32.png) [@Good\_Egg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Good_Egg)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/653 "2005-03-25T03:55:33Z")
Well,at this point, it would probably kill her immediately. But I assume they didn’t because A. they were only to stop doing anything active for her to live, not B. Give her something that would activiely kill her. Wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/654 "2005-03-25T03:58:09Z")
> [@Cinnamon Girl](#): > > In any case, I forgot to posit a question that I’ve been mulling over. > > I can understand that withdrawing the feeding tube is not likely to cause Terri any pain given her lacking most of her cortex (and as evidenced by her unresponsiveness to pain stimuli, I would hope?) However, on the off-chance that it did cause her discomfort and to relieve the concerns of her family that she might suffer, wouldn’t it be prudent to go the morphine route as a method of passive euthanasia? If she were injected with large doses of morphine, it would prevent any suffering at all and likely depress respiration likely hastening her death in a painless manner. The family would then be spared the longer process of death by starvation/dehydration. Would that not feel a little less icky to some people? > > Just wondering… It’s not legal for physicians to administer a lethal dose or to actively cause the death of a patient. We have the religious right to thank for the fact that we are forced to let people die slowly of natural causes rather than making the dying process quick and painless and dignified. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/655 "2005-03-25T04:02:32Z")
I forgot to mention that Terri _is_ being given morphine, just in non-lethal doses. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/656 "2005-03-25T04:04:17Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > I haven’t seen this reported anywhere. Where did you get this news? CNN broke into the tail-end of _Larry King_ with it. They said that a backpack was left against a wall, that two blocks around the building had been evacuated, and that on-the-scene tests by bomb disposal people registered positive for ‘dangerous material.’ They said there’d be more information forthcoming So far, I can only find one mention of it online, in [The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4890760,00.html) > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, the area around the federal courthouse was evacuated during the hearing after a suspicious backpack was found outside. The hearing was not interrupted. When they said that a two block area had been evacuated, I assumed that it included the courthouse itself. I’d like to know more about this, myself. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/657 "2005-03-25T04:04:28Z")
But I thought I read that she is on a morphine drip, at least for enough to take care of any “pain” that her body might still detect. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/658 "2005-03-25T04:21:10Z")
> [@brossa](#): > > I’m also angered by the calls for additional studies like PET scans or functional MRIs. These are being held out as ‘diagnostic’ tests that will establish whether Schiavo is in a PVS as opposed to, say, just really, really lazy. I have several problems with this. For one, PVS is a CLINICAL DIAGNOSIS that is made based on observed signs and symptoms. There is no ‘lab test’ for PVS. While it is possible to perform any number of additional lab or imaging studies on a patient with PVS, there is no consensus regarding the value or meaning of such studies. It’s easy to say “Well, just do one more test”, but if you can’t agree ahead of time on what the results signify, there is no point in doing the test. If a PET scan, a fMRI, and a CT showed that her entire brain had been surgically removed but her EEG shows some interesting activity, the Schindlers and the Repubs would cling to the EEG results. These are not really quantitative tests anyway (well, in a sense, but let me explain). If a PET scan shows that Terri has 13% as much brain metabolic activity in a particular area as a normal person at ‘rest’, and it jumps to 19% when her parents are speaking but only 16% when random noise is played, how are we to interpret the _meaning_ of those results. Oh, and now add in that some other brain structure (don’t know what it is exactly cause the anatomy is now so screwed up) is running at 90% of normal. What then? None of these tests change her _clinical_ status. As far as Terri’s EEG showing brain activity, I once read a book about medical oddities (yes, I know that doesn’t make me an expert; I’m just saying). Someone or a team of someones wanted to prove that “minimal” brain activity on an EEG didn’t mean much. To this end, they hooked up the graph to a lump of jello\* the approximate weight and density of a human brain. Results: Minimal brain activity. The “activity” was attributed to sound waves and so forth. I mean, there’s always going to be people walking around and talking in a hospital, and the jello absorbed that. \*The words “lime flavored” were added in parentheses. Because I’m sure the editor/author knew that everyone reading it was going to think, “I wonder what flavor it was?” ---
**Author:** ![Good\_Egg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/96bed5/32.png) [@Good\_Egg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Good_Egg)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/659 "2005-03-25T04:25:00Z")
That jello later went on to become president. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/660 "2005-03-25T04:26:12Z")
> [@Diogenes](#): > > It’s not legal for physicians to administer a lethal dose or to actively cause the death of a patient. We have the religious right to thank for the fact that we are forced to let people die slowly of natural causes rather than making the dying process quick and painless and dignified. This is not quite true. It is perfectly acceptable to give morphine in whatever doses are necessary to maintain a patient’s comfort, even if you know that such doses are likely to hasten the patient’s death. We refer to this as “comfort care”, and it is standard operating procedure in good end-of-life care. This seems to be at odds with our prohibition against active euthanasia, but the guiding principle here is the “double effect” principle: > [@The Bioethics book here on my desk](#): > > The doctrine that when an action can lead to two effects, one intended and desirable and the other unintended and undesirable, the unintended, undesirable effect is morally tolerable if the action itself is not immoral, the undesirable consequence is not a means to the desirable one, and the desirable effect produces a great enough amount of good to outweigh or be proportional to the undesirable effect. This concept is also applied to civilian casualties in wartime; if civilians die as a result of an attack on a legitimate military target, or as part of a legitimate and ultimately beneficial military strategy, it generally isn’t considered immoral. However, if your clear purpose is to kill a bunch of civilians, it isn’t moral. There is no real reason for anyone to die in discomfort. All evidence is that Schiavo does not have the capacity to experience such things as “discomfort”, but if she did, an escalating morphine drip would be very appropriate. I am not certain if she is getting one or not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029.md?page=32) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029.md?page=34)