# Let the poor woman die already! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 17, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029 "2005-03-17T19:11:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![furlibusea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@furlibusea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furlibusea)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/161 "2005-03-19T03:02:53Z")
They have pretty much determined that the portion of the brain that receives those signals is gone and or liquified. That kind of thing is pretty apparent on a catscan. ---
**Author:** ![Maendosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@Maendosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maendosa)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/162 "2005-03-19T03:03:42Z")
> [@Carnick](#): > > Since when does that require cognitive ability? Are you new to the internet? šŸ˜‰ > > Yeah, I guess that makes sense. I still think she shouldnā€™t be considered dead though, since her heart is still pumping. Weā€™re either respectful of all life or not, right? > > I didnā€™t know vegetable was a medical term. Learn something new every day. What is the definition, exactly? > > On a completely different point - how do we know if Terri is experiencing any pain or awareness? Can we determine that sort of thing with brain scanning equipment, or are we just guessing? Sheā€™s got less consciousness or comprehension than a _pet_. There isnā€™t even a proper ā€˜stimulus/responseā€™ function going on. Would you allow your dog, or cat, or any other animal to continue on in this state? Why do we value this ā€˜lifeā€™ so much?? Because itā€™s ā€˜humanā€™? Listen, what made it HUMAN is gone. Left. Left at least seven years ago, it seems. I really just donā€™t understand how someone could argue that she should be left ā€˜aliveā€™ as long as thereā€™s a heartbeat - is the forced flow of blood through human veins all it takes for you to call someone a person? Youā€™ve clearly got the ability to navigate not only your life, but the internet, and a message board. Iā€™m not unfamiliar with the challenges disabled people have to deal with - but you are ALIVE, you can communicate, you clearly have mental capacity, why in the world would you compare yourself to Terry who, for all intents and purposes IS a vegetable - sheā€™s got the reactions and ā€˜brainā€™ of one, at this point. Why in the world would you seek to keep that ā€˜personā€™ anchored to this existance, ESPECIALLY if (as it seems to be for the parents) you believe that when she dies, sheā€™ll go to a far far greater place than this moral coil has to offer her?? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/163 "2005-03-19T03:05:28Z")
> [@andros](#): > > I thank _God_ that my SO loves me enough to end my life. She is prepared to do whatever it takes to save me from zombiehood, including breaking the law. And I believe sheā€™s strong enough to let go. I only hope I could be as strong if the opposite were true, but Iā€™ve given my promise to do my best. My husband requested of me that I make all decisions and only inform his family once everything was over. We both fear that they would be the next Schindlers. And itā€™s horrible we even have to discuss such things for fear of ending up in court. ---
**Author:** ![Maendosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@Maendosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maendosa)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/164 "2005-03-19T03:07:13Z")
I just wanted to add that in no way would I consider this a ā€˜slippery slopeā€™ to threaten the lives of those disabled, you or anyone else. Thereā€™s quite CLEARLY a line between people who are disabled, people who are in a coma, and people who have been in a persistant, constant, and untreatable vegetative state. This is not an arguement about ā€˜should we kill off the disabledā€™, but a fierce struggle between those who believe that a still beating heart is greater than an individualā€™s right to choose their death with dignity. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/165 "2005-03-19T03:07:42Z")
> [@easy e](#): > > Earlier **duffer** expressed incredulity that Terri wouldā€™ve expressed her views on this type of situation to her husband and not her parents. Given what weā€™ve seen of her parents, and the fact that theyā€™re widely known to be devout Catholics, perhaps she didnā€™t tell them because she knew they wouldnā€™t listen or they would argue with her. Or maybe, just maybe, she did tell them but her parents didnā€™t believe her, didnā€™t think she was serious, or thought she didnā€™t know what was best for her. > > Outside of Madison, Wisconsin, thereā€™s some family that decorates a makeshift memorial and the site of a fatal car crash. According to the season, they put up a Christmas tree or decorate a nearby tree with Easter eggs. Iā€™m sure they loved whoever died very much, but it seems rather morbid to me. I imagine this family is of a very similar mindset to the Schindlers. If thereā€™s one thing I learned Growing Up Catholic, itā€™s that Roman Catholicism has something of a morbid streak. So Iā€™m not surprised. Given that her family still denies she had an eating disorder itā€™s no wonder theyā€™re in denial about her wishes. It makes me wonder what kind of parents they were-perhaps very controlling. No wonder she had such problems when she was alive. Poor girl. ---
**Author:** ![Nic2004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4491bb/32.png) [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/166 "2005-03-19T03:12:01Z")
:smack: posted before I was done. I would ask that those who accuse him of dishonorable motivation consider this: If he were a loving husband and would not let anything interfere with his promise to the woman he loved; not hugh sums of money, not press camped in his yard or investigators following himā€¦ if heā€™d sacrifice FIFTEEN FUCKING YEARS of his life for the crap heā€™s been throughā€¦ how would it look different than it does right now. Wouldnā€™t a lesser man, a less honorable man, a less dedicated husband take the easy way out YEARS AGO and go on to live his life with some degree of normalise? If he were all these things, how would it be different? ---
**Author:** ![Nic2004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4491bb/32.png) [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/167 "2005-03-19T03:23:01Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > [Fla. House OKs Bill to Keep Schiavo Alive](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=519&e=1&u=/ap/20050317/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman) > > _sigh_ > > Sheā€™s a vegetable! She has no thoughts, she is merely a shell of a person with nothing underneath. If Florida cares so much about human life why donā€™t they abolish the death penalty? At least murderers are aware of their own existance, unlike Terri Shiavo. A quick note on the OP. We do love life in Florida. Just not ALL life. Perhaps youā€™ve read of 9 year old Jennifer, murdered by a REPEAT SEX OFFENDER. Herā€™s yes. His, not so much. Murderers are aware of their own existance, and unfortuately, the existance of the lifeā€™s of innocents. ---
**Author:** ![easy\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/eb8c5e/32.png) [@easy\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/easy_e)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/168 "2005-03-19T03:23:17Z")
**Guinastasia** , Iā€™m Catholic, too (albeit not a very devout one). I truly believe that Terriā€™s soul departed her body 15 years ago. Itā€™s time to let her body go, too. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/169 "2005-03-19T03:29:16Z")
> [@ggurl](#): > > Iā€™ve read through this entire thread, thoroughly enough I think (Iā€™m tired), and so far I havenā€™t seen the issue brought up of what folks think ought to be done with _other_ people with similar handicapping conditions. Ms. Schiavo isnā€™t handicapped. She is dead. There is a difference. > [@](#): > > Iā€™m a social worker in an agency that serves little kids 0-3, and some of my clients are extremely low-functioning MR/DD and multiple handicapped - no speech, limited movement, seizures, etc. etc. Iā€™m very happy there are people like you in the world, and I hope those children get every advantage possible. > [@](#): > > Every argument that Ms. Schiavo is no longer a person/no longer alive because of lack of brain tissue/function brings to my mind these severely disabled children, of whom each and every one would starve to death if people stopped feeding them. Those of you who feel that Ms. Schiavo is not alive, how do you deal with the issue of a child who has similar functioning? Should their parents be allowed to stop feeding them as well, and ā€œletā€ them die? Ms. Schiavo is already dead. Those children are alive and severely handicapped. There is really no comparison. > [@](#): > > Flame all you want. I just believe that severely handicapped people are still people, not items from the pantry or non-entities. Having interacted with them, I canā€™t imagine thinking of one of those kids as a ā€œrutabagaā€ or referring to them as already dead. Any opinions on this? Once again, none of those children are dead. No feeling person would call a living child a ā€œrutabagaā€ and no thinking person would confuse a living child with someone who died 15 years ago. Just so weā€™re clear, I assume those children you take care of physically possess a cerebral cortex that is at least functional to some extent. Ms. Schiavo does not. Her high brain died 15 years ago and whatā€™s left is a corpse with a pulse. Ms. Schiavo isnā€™t a non-entity, she is a former entity much like my great-grandparents and George Washington. Her remains have been kept active through artificial means for a decade and a half because her parents wonā€™t accept that fundamental fact. Her memory lives on in her widowed husband and her parents. She, however, does not, and she deserves a proper burial at long last. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/170 "2005-03-19T03:51:25Z")
According to the latest AP story, > [@](#): > > Court-appointed doctors have said Schiavo will not feel any pain given her state, but her parentsā€™ doctors dispute that. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/171 "2005-03-19T03:56:46Z")
Of course her parentsā€™ doctors dispute that. For one thing, not disputing it really puts a hole in their claims that sheā€™s aware and responsive. For another thing, claiming that she would feel pain makes it easier to paint a picture of a despicable, ogrish man torturing a poor, defenseless victim of circumstance. ---
**Author:** ![Nic2004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4491bb/32.png) [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/172 "2005-03-19T03:59:02Z")
To **ggurl** - I too work for a time with severely handicapped children. They recognized me when I arrived and enjoyed our time together. They had foods they liked and some they didnā€™t, toys that were special, events to look forwaed to. We talked or communicated in one form or another and there was happiness and enjoyment in life. I did, and would still do, anything to make the life they have as long and enjoyable as possible. This is not Terry. This is not any form of lifeā€¦ only a nighmare existance. Just because science has made it possible does not mean it should be forced to continue. ---
**Author:** ![Good\_Egg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/96bed5/32.png) [@Good\_Egg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Good_Egg)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/173 "2005-03-19T04:04:09Z")
Are you saying Terri is aware somehow she is stuck in her body or, if she has died, how come she can still breathe? ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/174 "2005-03-19T04:07:34Z")
> [@DoctorJ](#): > > You are typing on a message board. You are interacting with the world. You are, to use **eleanorigbyā€™s** wonderful phrase, participating in your own life. > > . [hijack] thank you for the kind words. I wasnā€™t sure anyone actually reads my posts! [/end hijack] To me, interacting with even severly handicapped kids is so different from PVS that it boggles my mind that the two could be equated. Noone here,and I believe in Michaelā€™s camp, is advocating anything like that. But if I am found to be brain deadā€“please someone pull the plug and give my organs, if possible, to others. ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/175 "2005-03-19T04:12:47Z")
> [@Good Egg](#): > > Are you saying Terri is aware somehow she is stuck in her body or, if she has died, how come she can still breathe? As I have said elsewhere on the board, the part of your brain that controls your breathing is a different part from the one that controls your emotions, cognition and logic. Terriā€™s ā€œhigherā€ brain function - the ones that made Terri _Terri_, a person with thoughts and feelings, is dead. She now has the same mental capabilities as a meadow vole - actually, less, since she cannot even feed herself. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/176 "2005-03-19T04:15:58Z")
> [@Good Egg](#): > > Are you saying Terri is aware somehow she is stuck in her body or, if she has died, how come she can still breathe? Oy. Terri is no longer aware that she has a body. She has no awareness of heat/cold/pain/touch. She is brain deadā€“only the most primitive reflexes from the oldest parts of our brain function. This allows her to breathe and her heart to beat (and the heart also has a neat quality called ā€œautomaticityā€ which means that the muscle cells self-fireā€“they donā€™t need to be told to do so by the brain. What kills this feature is lack of oxygen). She is a young woman, who did abuse her body but even soā€“she has a young heart. She cannot swallow; she cannot pee/poop voluntarily. She has a catheter to drain her bladder (increases risk of UTI and kidney infections) and she is digitally stimulated to defecate (as far as I know). She has no voluntary movement-despite the videos to the contraryā€“\*\*Dr. J \*\* would know better, but I believe even her eye blink is impaired. Nurses and physical therapists and respiratory therapists perform the acts for Terri that you donā€™t even give a thought to -because she cannot and indeed has no awareness of. So, no she is not deadā€“she exists in a world suspended between death and lifeā€“a true physical limboā€“some would even say purgatory. Frankly, IMO, she has done her time and should be allowed to be at peace. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/177 "2005-03-19T04:18:52Z")
> [@easy e](#): > > **Guinastasia** , Iā€™m Catholic, too (albeit not a very devout one). I truly believe that Terriā€™s soul departed her body 15 years ago. Itā€™s time to let her body go, too. I donā€™t even consider myself a Catholic, well, not a religious one. I still have that upbringing though. **Good Egg** , technically, sheā€™s still alive, but she is no longer conscious. Itā€™s just her reflexes that work-the part of her brain that controls awareness is gone. Itā€™s almost as if she were a robot. Terri is gone. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Daddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Bruce\_Daddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Daddy)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/178 "2005-03-19T04:42:20Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Donā€™t try so hard, **Bruce\_Daddy** My eternal fault. ---
**Author:** ![Good\_Egg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/96bed5/32.png) [@Good\_Egg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Good_Egg)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/179 "2005-03-19T04:47:04Z")
Thanks for the info. Its almost scary that science can do this, and for what purpose? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029/180 "2005-03-19T05:24:19Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > So, no she is not deadā€“she exists in a world suspended between death and lifeā€“a true physical limboā€“some would even say purgatory. Frankly, IMO, she has done her time and should be allowed to be at peace. This is a definitional issue and a philosophical one, I suppose, but to me, she died 15 years ago when her cerebral cortex (the high brain, the physical seat of the personality, memories, and all conscious thought) shut down and could not be revived. As far as Iā€™m concerned, once the high brain cannot be revived whatā€™s left is the equivalent of a corpse: It has no personality or memories or even sensation and is no longer human in any way that counts. Itā€™s a dead person that happens to have a pulse and some other autonomic reflexes left. If you want to debate with me on this, Iā€™m more than willing. But before you do, take the time to do a bit of research into the difference between a persistent vegetative state and a coma. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-the-poor-woman-die-already/295029.md?page=10)