# Let Theists agree before they have the nerve to criticize atheists! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 12, 2007, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-theists-agree-before-they-have-the-nerve-to-criticize-atheists/403785 "2007-05-12T00:55:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2007, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-theists-agree-before-they-have-the-nerve-to-criticize-atheists/403785/521 "2007-05-20T21:09:39Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] **JThunder** ; did you make a mistake in your first line? It seems contradictory. [/QUOTE] Yes, I did make a mistake. I meant that one might say that atheism is not a religion, but it most certainly is a worldview. _Mea culpa_. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2007, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-theists-agree-before-they-have-the-nerve-to-criticize-atheists/403785/522 "2007-05-20T22:24:40Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] Oh, and before I forget, I think you still haven’t given me an answer to my question, **Contrapuntal**. What word would you use to refer to someone who does not believe in _any_ asserted gods? [/QUOTE] I just have time for this. Sorry. More later. The word is “atheist.” ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2007, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-theists-agree-before-they-have-the-nerve-to-criticize-atheists/403785/523 "2007-05-20T23:10:23Z")
Not all Christians would consider those who worship CONTRA to be worshipping other than “the one true God.” We just don’t fit in those little boxes quite so easily. That’s one of the benefits of not having to worry about logic. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2007, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-theists-agree-before-they-have-the-nerve-to-criticize-atheists/403785/524 "2007-05-20T23:49:13Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] I have always heard it told as a humorous koan and the second part, while relevant to a discussion between theists and atheists is not necessary to the specific point I was making to **Contrapuntal**. As to the assertion by **Contrapuntal** that atheism must be reactive, I deny the claim. I know any number of atheists who deny all realms of spirtitual and who hold that nothing outside the physical can exist and that no physical being can demonstrate powers beyond what humans posses. One can throw in whatever other potentially divine attributes one wishes and they would be equally denied _a priori_. That definition may be true regarding many atheists, (although I have not seen it), but that definition imposes a meaning on the word that is not supported by the actual non-believers I have encountered. [/QUOTE] It makes no sense at all to actively disbelieve in an undefined god, that I agree with. That is why lack of belief is a good definition of atheism, for it is certainly reasonable for me to lack belief in unspecified gods. Even atheists who do actively disbelieve in all gods also lack belief in all gods, so the definition still works. **Contrapuntal** ’s definition reminds me of someone who claimed atheism was foolish because the Romans thought Augustus Caesar was a god, and he existed, so some god did exist. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2007, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-theists-agree-before-they-have-the-nerve-to-criticize-atheists/403785/525 "2007-05-20T23:51:40Z")
[QUOTE=Lord Ashtar] Emphasis mine. Did the title of the OP change when I wasn’t looking? Perhaps we should ask a mod to change it to “Let Christians and Muslims agree before they have the nerve to criticize atheists”. [/QUOTE] Theists are the containing set of Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, cargo cultists, and Og knows who else. Now, if you could show me this theist church, consisting of people who believe in a god’s existence, but nothing else, then we might be able to analyze the OP in this nitpicking level of detail. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2007, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-theists-agree-before-they-have-the-nerve-to-criticize-atheists/403785/526 "2007-05-21T00:58:30Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] Theists are the containing set of Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, cargo cultists, and Og knows who else. Now, if you could show me this theist church, consisting of people who believe in a god’s existence, but nothing else, then we might be able to analyze the OP in this nitpicking level of detail. [/QUOTE] So any theists who don’t fall into any of the above and who don’t worship at a church aren’t really theists? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2007, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-theists-agree-before-they-have-the-nerve-to-criticize-atheists/403785/527 "2007-05-21T02:21:31Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] Theists are the containing set of Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, cargo cultists, and Og knows who else. Now, if you could show me this theist church, consisting of people who believe in a god’s existence, but nothing else, then we might be able to analyze the OP in this nitpicking level of detail. [/QUOTE] Whoever said that all theists have to belong to a church? It’s entirely possible for someone to believe in God without having any firm convictions on other theological matters – especially if that person is still at the beginning of his exploratory journey. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2007, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-theists-agree-before-they-have-the-nerve-to-criticize-atheists/403785/528 "2007-05-21T02:25:28Z")
[QUOTE=Lord Ashtar] [del]So any theists who don’t fall into any of the above and who don’t worship at a church aren’t really theists?[/del] [/QUOTE] Let’s just replace that with what **JThunder** said. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2007, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-theists-agree-before-they-have-the-nerve-to-criticize-atheists/403785/529 "2007-05-21T06:58:53Z")
[QUOTE=JThunder] Whoever said that all theists have to belong to a church? It’s entirely possible for someone to believe in God without having any firm convictions on other theological matters – especially if that person is still at the beginning of his exploratory journey. [/QUOTE] Possible? Who knows. But I’m betting this set of people isn’t the set criticizing atheists. In any case, do you deny that traditional religionists are also theists? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2007, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-theists-agree-before-they-have-the-nerve-to-criticize-atheists/403785/530 "2007-05-21T07:07:22Z")
“I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” Stephen F Roberts > [@](#): > > [**Brief history of The Quote…**](http://freelink.wildlink.com/quote_history.php) > > …Yep, that’s me! I am the author of the above quote which has become a bit of a popular statement throughout the net (and some in the real world too). > > …I first used The Quote as a tag line for postings on the newsgroups alt.atheism and talk.atheism at some point before October 1995. I don’t remember exactly when I started using it, and unfortunately lost my mailer that would have contained the archive. The earliest records that [DejaNews.com](http://DejaNews.com) have is back to 1995, and by October 1995 it apeared ‘widespread’ in taglines, so I must have originated it sometime before then. Most likely early 95 or late 94. > > …The Quote is an original quote that came from an online debate I was having with religious people in the newsgroups. I used the a similar comparison in a debate when my opponent wondered why I ignored the evidence for god, and in return, I wondered why my debate opponent chose to ignore the evidence for Shiva, or Zeus, or any of the other possible gods. > > …I then slightly refined and shortened it the next day to the ‘modern’ form it is now to use in a tagline. Within days, The Quote was in use by others in their taglines (I added my name as an attribute a few weeks later when people asked me if it was my original quote). > > …About a month later, I made another variation of the quote that also appears sometimes: “We are all atheists, some of us just believe in fewer gods than others”… but it never quite got the popularity of the original 🙂 … CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2007, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-theists-agree-before-they-have-the-nerve-to-criticize-atheists/403785/531 "2007-05-21T11:47:15Z")
[QUOTE=JThunder] Whoever said that all theists have to belong to a church? It’s entirely possible for someone to believe in God without having any firm convictions on other theological matters – especially if that person is still at the beginning of his exploratory journey. [/QUOTE] It’s even quite possible for someone to have been on their spiritual journey for years and then come to realize that the doctrine and dogma of different religions and denominations are for the most part, unnecessary frills that people place to much importance on. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2007, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-theists-agree-before-they-have-the-nerve-to-criticize-atheists/403785/532 "2007-05-21T12:18:42Z")
[QUOTE=JThunder] Whoever said that all theists have to belong to a church? It’s entirely possible for someone to believe in God without having any firm convictions on other theological matters – especially if that person is still at the beginning of his exploratory journey. [/QUOTE] Many theists don’t belong to any church, I am one of them, and I know a lot more. It is not necessary to belong to any organization in order to believe in God. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2007, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-theists-agree-before-they-have-the-nerve-to-criticize-atheists/403785/533 "2007-05-21T12:47:58Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] Possible? Who knows. But I’m betting this set of people isn’t the set criticizing atheists. [/QUOTE] That’s not what you said earlier, though. Your exact words were: “Theists are the containing set of Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, cargo cultists, and Og knows who else. Now, if you could show me this theist church, consisting of people who believe in a god’s existence, but nothing else…” Besides, what makes you think that they wouldn’t take issue with what atheists teach? They believe in a god, and you don’t. Why wouldn’t they voice their objection? ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2007, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-theists-agree-before-they-have-the-nerve-to-criticize-atheists/403785/534 "2007-05-21T13:13:48Z")
[QUOTE=JThunder] Of course it is. One might say that it’s not a religion, but it most certainly is not a worldview. [/QUOTE] I’m guessing you meant to say that it was a worldview, correct? In any event, I disagree. It is no more a worldview then a lack of a belief in bigfoot is a worldview. > [@](#): > > It doesn’t matter whether you choose to call it a worldview or not, though. Call it a guiding principle or a philosophy, if you wish. The point is that the atheists here cannot even agree on what atheism is. It’s not a guiding principle or a philosophy either. All atheism is, is a lack of belief in god/s. Whether people who are atheists disagree or not is irrelevant, since it’s not a worldview, philosophy, or guiding principle. It’s not a way in which to interpret the world, it’s not a way in which to live, nor is it an epistemic tool. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2007, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-theists-agree-before-they-have-the-nerve-to-criticize-atheists/403785/535 "2007-05-21T14:12:38Z")
[QUOTE=JThunder] Yes, I did make a mistake. I meant that one might say that atheism is not a religion, but it most certainly is a worldview. _Mea culpa_. [/QUOTE] How? Out of the many atheists on this board I’m not sure I share a particular “worldview” with any of them. Guess it comes from being a free-thinker as well…if we’re going to be throwing pointless definitions out there. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2007, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-theists-agree-before-they-have-the-nerve-to-criticize-atheists/403785/536 "2007-05-21T14:19:49Z")
[QUOTE=Meatros] I’m guessing you meant to say that it was a worldview, correct? In any event, I disagree. It is no more a worldview then a lack of a belief in bigfoot is a worldview. [/QUOTE] Of course it’s a worldview. A lack of belief in Bigfoot might have little effect on how one conducts one’s life, but a lack of belief in God (whether active disbelief or a mere lack of any conviction) most certainly does color one’s views on behavior, ethics, morality, family structure, philosophy and so forth. It would be foolish to pretend otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2007, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-theists-agree-before-they-have-the-nerve-to-criticize-atheists/403785/537 "2007-05-21T14:29:57Z")
[QUOTE=JThunder] Of course it’s a worldview. A lack of belief in Bigfoot might have little effect on how one conducts one’s life, but a lack of belief in God (whether active disbelief or a mere lack of any conviction) most certainly does color one’s views on behavior, ethics, morality, family structure, philosophy and so forth. It would be foolish to pretend otherwise. [/QUOTE] Again, **how**? I don’t have to stretch my imagination any to _know_ that although I am an atheist, my son, for instance, who’s come to the same conclusion as I, has much more in common with a Western worldview and his peers, than he does with say, the son of a Buddhist in Tibet. Pretty much my case as well…as long as we leave gods out of the equation, you wouldn’t know a thging about my “worldviews” unless I told you about them. And please don’t even start with the whole “morals and atheists” stchick, or I’ll have to ask you if the only thing that prevents from killing another human being is your god/s. Said form of divine ethics is not working out too well for say…Bush or Osama, is it? ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2007, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-theists-agree-before-they-have-the-nerve-to-criticize-atheists/403785/538 "2007-05-21T14:30:57Z")
[QUOTE=JThunder] Of course it’s a worldview. A lack of belief in Bigfoot might have little effect on how one conducts one’s life, but a lack of belief in God (whether active disbelief or a mere lack of any conviction) most certainly does color one’s views on behavior, ethics, morality, family structure, philosophy and so forth. It would be foolish to pretend otherwise. [/QUOTE] No, it’s not a worldview and no it doesn’t lead to views on behavior, ethics, morality, etc, etc. I don’t know what you mean by ‘color’ here, as I would imagine a lack of belief in Bigfoot could potentially color these things as well. The fact is that if what you say is true then an atheist is a different worldview then a buddhist, naturalist, physicalist, property dualist, etc, etc. If what you say is true then a physicalist would have two worldviews, the atheist worldview (whatever that is) and the physicalists worldview (which is pretty succiently metaphysically defined). Which set of morals does atheism lead to? Utalitarianism? Objectivism? If it’s foolish to pretend otherwise, then call me a fool - but at least first have the decency to explain why it’s foolish to pretend otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2007, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-theists-agree-before-they-have-the-nerve-to-criticize-atheists/403785/539 "2007-05-21T14:34:26Z")
PS-Forgot to add. “Family structure.” WTF does atheism say about that? Because, unlike Mormons say, no one’s told me how many wifes I can have. However I do think one is too many. Wonder where I got that from? My atheist bible? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2007, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-theists-agree-before-they-have-the-nerve-to-criticize-atheists/403785/540 "2007-05-21T14:40:40Z")
That should be “wives” of course. Because, as everyone knows, atheists can’t spell for shit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-theists-agree-before-they-have-the-nerve-to-criticize-atheists/403785.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/let-theists-agree-before-they-have-the-nerve-to-criticize-atheists/403785.md?page=28)