# lethal response to home breakin **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 17, 2001, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lethal-response-to-home-breakin/82148 "2001-09-17T13:43:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lethal-response-to-home-breakin/82148/121 "2001-10-05T02:27:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Czarcasm \* > \*\*I _do_ believe I’ve already given stats on how much more likely a handgun purchased for home protection will kill a family member or a friend then a robber breaking into your home \*\* That statistic could also be read, Its 22 times more likely that someone you know and or love will make you killing angry than a burglar will break in while you’re home. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lethal-response-to-home-breakin/82148/122 "2001-10-05T02:41:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by drachillix \* > **Czar, I find it fascinating that you seem to feel its ok for Anthracite to have a gun since she has been hurt by an intruder, but not ok for someone else to have one and possibly stop a would be attacker. Why are we gun owners doing wrong by being proactive.** In fairness to **Czarcasm** , and not wanting to speak for him, I think he had less of an objection to me having a weapon at the ready because I do not have houseguests or visitors typially, nor do I allow children in my house. Specifically, he said: > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Czarcasm_ > **Anthracite, I certainly feel sympathy for your situation, and have no objection to your owning a gun. If someone lives alone, has no houseguests or visitors, has multiple locks on their doors etc., I have no, I repeat no, objections to their having a gun at their bedside, providing thery are properly trained(which I assume you are.)** In fact, in the last 8 or 9 years, there has never been a person under 21 in my apartment or house. Kinda odd when you think about it… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lethal-response-to-home-breakin/82148/123 "2001-10-05T03:32:31Z")
Anthracite, you hit the nail on the head. In certain circumstances, owning a handgun for self protection might be justified, as long as you minimize the risks as much as possible, and balance it against the actual chance of your house being broken into _while you are at home_. If someone breaks into your house while you are gone, and you’ve “hidden” the weapon, in most cases you can kiss it goodbye. ExTank’s here? Good!🙂 ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lethal-response-to-home-breakin/82148/124 "2001-10-05T03:53:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anthracite \* > In fairness to **Czarcasm** , and not wanting to speak for him, I think he had less of an objection to me having a weapon at the ready because I do not have houseguests or visitors typially, nor do I allow children in my house. Specifically, he said: > > Upon further review I agree that that is most likely the angle however > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by Czarcasm_ > > **If someone lives alone, has no houseguests or visitors, has multiple locks on their doors etc., I have no, I repeat no, objections to their having a gun at their bedside, providing thery are properly trained(which I assume you are.)** OK so if I meet these qualifications then its OK to have a loaded gun? I wouldn’t know where to look for a cite on this but I bet this is no more than 5% of our population who meet these qualifications before the training part. Probably only 1% after that. Czar would you be willing to define “proper training” for me? If so would you support that everyone recieves some kind of basic gun safety training adequate to consider what you call “proper training” say as a required part of High school. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lethal-response-to-home-breakin/82148/125 "2001-10-05T04:24:11Z")
Kiddo, I don’t think _I_ have the proper training for owning a handgun for home protection: I don’t sleep with my glasses on, I have poor night vision, and I don’t wake up very fast. Perhaps Anthracite and/or ExTank can answer the question as to what training, beyond proper marksmanship, a person who buys a gun for home protection should have? ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lethal-response-to-home-breakin/82148/126 "2001-10-05T06:42:48Z")
I’m buying a gun soon for home defense and have owned one before, and have already planned how I would react to an intruder. If intruder is holding a weapon, he is going to get shot repeatedly with no warning. If intruder is not obviously armed I am going to shout to put his hands on his head and then lay face-down. If he does not immediatly do so, he is going to get shot repeatedly. If I see he has a weapon on him after he is subdued, I will tell him to get up and then I will shoot him repeatedly. I will give unarmed burglars a chance because I was a stupid teenager myself and burgled a house or two, but NOBODY enters my house with the potential to harm my family and lives. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lethal-response-to-home-breakin/82148/127 "2001-10-05T12:28:25Z")
Sounds reasonable, actually. Some questions, though. 1. Have you called your local police department to ask how many break-ins(while the occupants are home) occured in the previous year? 2. Do you keep the weapon and ammo locked safely away, seperarely, when you are out of the house, or do you hide them? I called my local PD, and found that in the previous year, there had been only one case of an armed intruder breaking into an occupied home. I spent money on putting in stronger locks on the doors and windows, and various other safety measures which would also help secure my home while I was _not_ home, which is when most burglaries occur. ---
**Author:** ![justinh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@justinh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justinh)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lethal-response-to-home-breakin/82148/128 "2001-10-05T13:27:36Z")
I have an alarm system and once in the middle of the night it went off indicating the back door was open. I checked the bedrooms (all 4 upstairs) and verified that all the kids were still in bed. I had my bat . I turned the lights on in the stairs. my gun was still put away. I turned the alarm siren off and listened. no sounds downstairs. I got my gun and went downstairs . the back door was wide open. but noone was in the house. I will never know how it got open.(I assume that I didn’t have it pulled tight enough when I locked it). but the point is. I didn’t panic and start firing away. and I was comforted because once I secured the upstairs and was armed then I knew that any intruders were not going to overpower me. (now if some inlaw would have come over for some reason then I probably would have blown him/her away. and my wife’s family would be mad at me. but the already are anyway) thats the point of having a firearm. it takes the panic/scared shitless situation away. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lethal-response-to-home-breakin/82148/129 "2001-10-05T15:11:45Z")
That does bring up a good point, justin. Regardless of whether or not someone will ever break into my house, I DO sleep better just knowing it’s there for me if I ever need it. Last thing I want is some recurring nightmare dream about encountering an intruder that laughs at me for bringing a knife to a gunfight. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2001, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lethal-response-to-home-breakin/82148/130 "2001-10-05T23:16:58Z")
**Czar:** I think it is less a matter of training than _forethought._ But some training, either official or self-taught through reading, can be beneficial as well. Before a person buys a gun for home defense, they should make a realistic assessment as to the probability of a home intrusion. A trip to the police department can help in this regard. Find out how many home break-ins there have been in your communty, and how many were “hot” or “cold” (occupants present at time of break-in, or not, respectively). If home intrusions are rare in your community, then I would not recommend a gun for home defense. If they decide that a gun for home-defense is necessary or desirable, here’s what I recommend: First, anyone purchasing a gun for defensive purposes must ask themselves, and honestly answer (all Hollywood bullshit aside), whether or not they could actually shoot, possibly kill, another human being. If not, get a dog and put 911 on the speed-dial. Secondly, as a gun for home defense needs to be ready and available, that person needs to conduct a realistic assessment of their domestic situation. Are children present in the home? Do friends come and visit with their children? By realistic assessment, I mean they should plan for a worst-case-scenario. Plan on purchasing appropriate storage and locking devices to fit your situation. Along with that, the home owner should consider whether they will have people coming-and-going at wierd hours, such as mischievious teenagers sneaking out to a rave, or sneaking home at 4:00 A.M. from a rave through their bedroom window. Remember: worst-case-scenario! Third, do a bit of independent research about the ballistic characteristics of various firearms and ammuntion types before buying a gun. If you live in an apartment, then a .44 magnum is probably not a safe weapon to use for home defense due to over-penetration factors, _unless you load it with **Glaser Safety Slugs.** _ In other words, do not automatically trust a dealer to steer you to the approriate firearm for your needs. Then, and in actual answer to **Czar’s** question, either enroll in a basic firearms safety course, or the next level up, a firearms self-defense course, to take care of two bodies of knowledge in one class (safety and self-defense). At a minimum, at least read the safety manual provided with your firearm! If you buy it used and there is no manual, look up the manufacturer’s address and write them; they will most often send you a replacement manual for free. Next, go to a firearms range that has guns for rent, so that you may test-fire several different calibers and types of guns. This will give you a rough idea of what is comfortable for you to hold and handle. Quite often, this sort of thing is covered in a training or self-defense course. Some may disagree, but I recommend slipping your hearing protection off for at least one shot, especially if you are at an indoor range, so that you may have an appreciation of what a discharging firearm will sound like in your home, should you ever need it. Generally speaking, the smaller the room a gun is fired in, the louder it will seem. Lastly:_practice, Practice, **PRACTICE!** _ Buying a gun for self- or home-defense and then never practicing with it is probably the number one cause of in-home accidents and the occasional incident of an intruder taking the homeowner’s gun away from them. Like any other tool, it requires skill and knowledge to use safely _and_ effectively, and that skill and knowledge doesn’t accumulate along with the dust on your gun sitting in the dark. If, like me, you are more of a recreational shooter than worried about home defense, then **storage, locking, and safety** will be your biggest concerns. I strongly recommend that they be taken seriously. Because every time some knucklehead accidentally shoots his kid while cleaning his deer rifle, I have to listen to Rosie O’Donnel tell me how evil I am as a gun owner, how evil the NRA and Chuck Heston are, and how every American with a gun should be locked up in prison as a public menace. There are enough serious criminals abusing guns that we gun owners don’t need to give the Rosie O’Donnel’s any further excuse with acts of careless stupidity that could have easily been prevented with rational forethought and some basic instruction or research. In closing, and I am repeating what I have said before, I believe that all gun owners should have basic safety training, and that it should be renewed/reviewed every couple of years. But I am opposed to _mandatory_ training, because the anti-gun legislators and bureaucrats will then have the power to mandate the cost, the time, the frequency, the curriculum and so on in such a way as to make the training unavailable to a great number of people, and thereby enact a back-door ban on guns. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2001, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lethal-response-to-home-breakin/82148/131 "2001-10-06T02:44:10Z")
Damn good advice. Beats the shit out of “Blam! Freeze!”, doesn’t it? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Guad2K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/278dde/32.png) [@Guad2K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guad2K)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2001, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lethal-response-to-home-breakin/82148/132 "2001-10-06T04:52:02Z")
extank sed: > [@](#): > > One of the basic tenets of firearm safety is to always treat every firearm as if it is loaded \ drilled mercilessly by the US Military. Well, the Army at least. eh … so how do you clean a loaded weapon? When I was in the Marines they taught us to actually figure out whether or not a firearm is loaded … does you no good at all to try to throw rounds down range if there’s nothing in the chamber. And you’d be an idiot to blindly field-strip a loaded weapon. Currently, I gots me a M-1 carbine sitting right out in the open where any visitor to my hacienda can see it & handle it … safety off also. I mean, c’mon, would you put a baseball bat under lock-n-key just because it _could_ be used as a weapon? My M-1 is effectively nothing more threatening than a bat … perhaps less so because it’s so light-weight. I certainly don’t treat it as if it were loaded precisely because it is not loaded – has never been loaded in the 10 years that I’ve owned it. I’ve never purchased any ammo; it is basically a decoration or a paperweight … at best a “conversation piece” … a reminder of my youth if you will. Let me cut to the chase … the **BEST** rule for handling weapons is to **always DETERMINE whether or not the weapon is loaded** before you do anything with it. So, when approaching a “strange” firearm for the first time, pick it up carefully, point it away from people or valuable thangs (as much as possible) and CHECK THE CHAMBER AND MAGAZINE. If the chamber is empty _AND_ there is either _no magazine_ OR the _magazine is empty_, then what one has in their grubby little paws is, in all real actual fact, an **UNLOADED** gun. And hence, I will treat an unloaded gun as just that. People who treat unloaded guns as if the gun were loaded are … morons … to use Billy’s sweet turn of phrase. Just as an fyi, I currently happen to be a card-carrying “Lifetime Member” of the NRA … and although I am rather ambivalent about Charleton Heston, I really really despise Wayne LaPierre (sp?) … that dude is a mega-freak whose policies, if ever enacted by law, would result in every crankhead in America owning a machine gun (for those who would be lost without unnecesary redundancies … that means fully automatic). But that’s just my opinion. Well, just to keep on-topic, if I had an actual loaded firearm, and somebody broke into my house (in the middle of the night or middle of the day, no difference to me), my instinct would be to call the cops first if I thought that I had time & space, but in any case I would very likely commence firing without much warning. Maybe a shout of “I’ve got a gun” and a short count to 3 to see if the intruder vacates prior to opening fire … but I have absolutely no moral or ethical compunctions against shooting and possibly killing a person. It’s a lot better than getting killed, or my wife or kids being harmed in any way. But that is very hypothetical considering I don’t even have an operational firearm in my possession in the first place … I’d probably be better off grabbing my rusty replica civil-war cavalry sword for home defense. O&BTW, have a nice day. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2001, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lethal-response-to-home-breakin/82148/133 "2001-10-06T06:17:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guad2K \* > \*\* > > Let me cut to the chase … the **BEST** rule for handling weapons is to **always DETERMINE whether or not the weapon is loaded** before you do anything with it. \*\* Ok, that’s the best rule. It isn’t the onle rule though. > [@](#): > > \*\* > People who treat unloaded guns as if the gun were loaded are … morons … to use Billy’s sweet turn of phrase. \*\* No, they’re not morons. The reason you always treat it as if were loaded is to prevent you from developing bad firearm safety habits. Treating it as if it were loaded basically means not keeping your finger on the trigger and pointing the firearm in a safe direction. I’d wager that someone who is used to always treating a firearm as loaded is less likely to accidentally shoot themselves or someone else. But I don’t have a cite so maybe I’m just talking out of my ass. I lock my car door every time I get out. Even when I’m in small towns and there’s almost no risk of having something stolen. I also put on my seatbelt every time I get into my car. I do this out of habit. Marc ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2001, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lethal-response-to-home-breakin/82148/134 "2001-10-06T21:27:56Z")
**Guad2k:** what **MGibson** said. Think safe, act safe, be safe. There was nothing in my advice that precludes a person knowledgeable about the function of any given firearm from dropping a mag and checking the chamber of a firearm that they are handed or pick up. Of course, if someone hands me a firearm, I’ll most likely refuse to accept it until they have dropped any magazine, opened the chamber and visually verified it as empty before handing it to me. The danger comes when someone simply _assumes_ that a firearm is unloaded, and proceeds to handle it carelessly on that assumption. And you know what they say about assumptions. But assuming a firearm is loaded (worst-case-scenario), and taking precautions such as keeping the barrel pointed in a safe direction, and keeping fingers out of the trigger guard and off of the trigger, is the most prudent course of action to take with a lethal implement. ---
**Author:** ![justinh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@justinh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justinh)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2001, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lethal-response-to-home-breakin/82148/135 "2001-10-07T04:14:58Z")
extank, when someone hands me a firearm, I don’t care if they have dropped the mag or anything, I consider it a loaded weapon. And I prefer that they don’t unload it in front of me. I don’t want them fumbling with it when me standing there. I like to be in charge of it when it is manipulated. ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c67d28/32.png) [@Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_AL_Einstein)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2001, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lethal-response-to-home-breakin/82148/136 "2001-10-07T22:16:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Darqangelle \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Weird\_AL\_Einstein \* > > \*\ ***Darqangelle** : In regard to your questions about Canadian law: Is there a “citizens arrest” in Canada? \*\* > > I’m aware of such a thing in the U.S., but I’m not aware of the actual implications of the act. can you tell me what a “citizen’s arrest” entails? > \*\* Hi, sorry I didn’t answer this sooner, I haven’t just been ignoring you honest, I just haven’t had time to get on the net hardly at all this week. IRT your question, all I really know for sure is that it varies from state to state, I would have to do more research. Sorry I couldn’t be more helpful. ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c67d28/32.png) [@Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_AL_Einstein)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2001, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lethal-response-to-home-breakin/82148/137 "2001-10-07T23:38:20Z")
And I’ve been gone so long, I forgot my rule about reading the _whole_ thread before replying… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Darqangelle \* > \*\*If I WERE to move to the US, I would more than likely avoid purchasing a firearm because if I really need one, then I’m obviously living in the wrong neighbourhood and I’d move. Quickly. > \*\* This assumes you have the wherewithal to do so, something that strikes me as unlikely if you are living in such a neighborhood in the first place. Not to mention there is a principle to consider here, that of refusing to let the criminals “win” by pushing you out, but that’s for another thread… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anthracite \* > \*\*It’s also akin to saying "How many children must be exposed to hard-core pornography so that Mr. Weird Al can buy his lesbian skin magazine (sorry Weird Al 😉 )? \*\* Ack…the things I miss when I am gone for a few days. Una, I resent your insult to my intelligence here, implying that I would do something so…so…_twentieth century_ as go out and buy a _magazine_, when there is so much great lesbian porn on the internet. … Ummmm…or anyway, that’s what I’ve _heard_. 😃 Oh yes, and I prefer the term “visual erotica” to the ghastly politically incorrect “skin magazine”. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lethal-response-to-home-breakin/82148.md?page=6)