# Let's amend the Constitution to ban abortion opponents! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 17, 2010, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-amend-the-constitution-to-ban-abortion-opponents/554109 "2010-09-17T18:01:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Mozart1220](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Mozart1220](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mozart1220)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-amend-the-constitution-to-ban-abortion-opponents/554109/101 "2010-09-21T16:11:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > > [@Mozart1220](#): > > > > Again you miss the point, maybe it’s deliberate. > > > > THEY WOULD ALL HAVE TO BE INVESTIGATED. > > It’s not me missing the point: > > > [@Mozart1220](#): > > > > If abortion is murder, then misscarriage is invoulantary manslaughter. It’s undeniable. Seriously, this is a logical and legal fact beyond dispute… > > Now you’re saying it MIGHT be manslaughter, and would have to be investigated… and insisting that this was your real point all along. I said it WOULD be manslaughter. The investigation would decide if it were INVOULANTARY. Keep spinning and twisting, but eventually you will have to address the actual point, or give up. The logic is clear and undeniable. It doesn’t change just because you want everything to go your way. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-amend-the-constitution-to-ban-abortion-opponents/554109/102 "2010-09-21T16:14:31Z")
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**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-amend-the-constitution-to-ban-abortion-opponents/554109/103 "2010-09-21T16:17:05Z")
> [@Mozart1220](#): > > I said it WOULD be manslaughter. The investigation would decide if it were INVOULANTARY. OK. What facts do you think the prosecution has to prove to convict someone of involuntary manslaughter? ---
**Author:** ![Mozart1220](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Mozart1220](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mozart1220)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-amend-the-constitution-to-ban-abortion-opponents/554109/104 "2010-09-21T16:19:28Z")
Bricker, let me ask you outright, so there is no mistake on my part. Do you believe the zygote is a human being at conception? Do you believe all abortions are murder? ---
**Author:** ![Mozart1220](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Mozart1220](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mozart1220)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-amend-the-constitution-to-ban-abortion-opponents/554109/105 "2010-09-21T16:21:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > > [@Mozart1220](#): > > > > I said it WOULD be manslaughter. The investigation would decide if it were INVOULANTARY. > > OK. > > What facts do you think the prosecution has to prove to convict someone of involuntary manslaughter? Not my place to say, but the question is, do we WANT all misscariages investigated in this way? But give lawyers and judges a chance, especially in places like the south or Utah, where religion overrules rational thought, and see what happens. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-amend-the-constitution-to-ban-abortion-opponents/554109/106 "2010-09-21T16:25:59Z")
> [@Mozart1220](#): > > Bricker, let me ask you outright, so there is no mistake on my part. > > Do you believe the zygote is a human being at conception? Yes. > [@](#): > > Do you believe all abortions are murder? No. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-amend-the-constitution-to-ban-abortion-opponents/554109/107 "2010-09-21T16:28:20Z")
> [@Mozart1220](#): > > > [@Bricker](#): > > > > OK. > > > > What facts do you think the prosecution has to prove to convict someone of involuntary manslaughter? > > Not my place to say, but the question is, do we WANT all misscariages investigated in this way? No, we don’t. But there is no reason to believe they would be, since you fundamentally misunderstand the crime of manslaughter. How can you confidently assert that (if the embryo is regarded as human) all miscarriages would be manslaughter, and then say it’s not your place to say what elements comprise manslaughter? How did you reach the conclusion that they were all manslaughter if you don’t have a view of what manslaughter is? ---
**Author:** ![Mozart1220](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Mozart1220](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mozart1220)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-amend-the-constitution-to-ban-abortion-opponents/554109/108 "2010-09-21T16:58:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > > [@Mozart1220](#): > > > > Not my place to say, but the question is, do we WANT all misscariages investigated in this way? > > No, we don’t. > \*\*\*Then there you go. \*\*\* > > But there is no reason to believe they would be, since you fundamentally misunderstand the crime of manslaughter. > > \*\*\*See the Utah law. Then come back and say that again. > > And what don’t I understand? And remember I said INVOULANTARY manslaughter as well. > > * * * > > How can you confidently assert that (if the embryo is regarded as human) all miscarriages would be manslaughter, and then say it’s not your place to say what elements comprise manslaughter? > > \*\*\*Because that would be up to the courts. If the zygote is human, and a human was involved in the killing of it, how can it NOT be some form of manslaughter? \*\*\* > > How did you reach the conclusion that they were all manslaughter if you don’t have a view of what manslaughter is? > \*\*\*Manslaughter, like murder is the killing of another human being. the difference is motive and circumstance. You keep claiming I don’t know what manslaughter is and I do. What I don’t know until the individual case is discussed, is how the court will decide if it’s INVOULANTARY or not. You keep leaving that important word out. \*\*\* The argument is INVOULANTARY vs. VOULANTARY. ---
**Author:** ![Mozart1220](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Mozart1220](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mozart1220)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-amend-the-constitution-to-ban-abortion-opponents/554109/109 "2010-09-21T17:01:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > > [@Mozart1220](#): > > > > Bricker, let me ask you outright, so there is no mistake on my part. > > > > Do you believe the zygote is a human being at conception? > > Yes. > > \*\*\*Based on what? If I offered to sell you a rotweiller puppy and then gave you two cells in a petri dish, you’d be pretty pissed. \*\*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > Do you believe all abortions are murder? > > No. \*\*\*Again, what’s the difference? It’s the killing of a human being right? Is it then a form of manslaughter? we are not at war with zygotes, so that justificatin wouldn’t apply. \*\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-amend-the-constitution-to-ban-abortion-opponents/554109/110 "2010-09-21T17:19:06Z")
> [@Mozart1220](#): > > The argument is INVOULANTARY vs. VOULANTARY. And what do you believe the differences are between voluntary and involuntary manslaughter? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-amend-the-constitution-to-ban-abortion-opponents/554109/111 "2010-09-21T17:20:47Z")
> [@Mozart1220](#): > > \*\*\*Again, what’s the difference? It’s the killing of a human being right? Is it then a form of manslaughter? we are not at war with zygotes, so that justificatin wouldn’t apply. \*\*\* Not all killing is murder, and not all killing is manslaugter. Some killing is simply accidental, and has no criminal implications at all. I suspect this is what’s hanging you up. You seem to believe that any killing of one person by another is at least some kind of manslaughter. But that’s not correct. ---
**Author:** ![Mozart1220](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Mozart1220](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mozart1220)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-amend-the-constitution-to-ban-abortion-opponents/554109/112 "2010-09-21T17:26:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > > [@Mozart1220](#): > > > > \*\*\*Again, what’s the difference? It’s the killing of a human being right? Is it then a form of manslaughter? we are not at war with zygotes, so that justificatin wouldn’t apply. \*\*\* > > Not all killing is murder, and not all killing is manslaugter. Some killing is simply accidental, and has no criminal implications at all. > > \*\*\*Thus the term you keep conveniently leaving out INVOULANTARY. But how do we know until we INVESTIGATE? \*\*\* > I suspect this is what’s hanging you up. > > \*\*\*I am in no way “hung up”. \*\*\* > You seem to believe that any killing of one person by another is at least some kind of manslaughter. > \*\*\*I really don’t \*\*\* > But that’s not correct. > > \*\*\*Again, I agree with that, but until there is an investigation, HOW DO WE KNOW? > > That is the question you keep avoiding in an attempt to have both abortion as murder and misscarriage not included. \*\*\* Again, you miss the point. It’s not about what I think, it’s about wives, sisters, daughters etc. having to go through a criminal investigation to prove they did not deliberatly or in any other way “cause” the death of the unborn. Who needs that? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-amend-the-constitution-to-ban-abortion-opponents/554109/113 "2010-09-21T17:28:07Z")
Let me give you some examples: 1. You’re sitting in a chair that is wired to a light switch. I see you there, and knowing that the chair is electrically wired, and intending to kill you, I throw the switch. 2. 1. You’re sitting in a chair that is wired to a light switch. I can’t see the chair and don’t know you’re in it, but I know that the chair is electrically wired, and I really like the mental rush of knowing I just might be killing someone who decided to sit down I throw the switch. 3. You’re sitting in the chair and I have no idea the chair or the switch is unusual in any way. I walk into the room and see you sitting in the chair, and since the light is kind of dim, I throw the switch. Each of these situations is different. One is murder, one is manslaughter, and one is no crime at all. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-amend-the-constitution-to-ban-abortion-opponents/554109/114 "2010-09-21T17:31:42Z")
> [@Mozart1220](#): > > \*\*\*I am in no way “hung up”. \*\*\* > . > . > . > \*\*\*Again, I agree with that, but until there is an investigation, HOW DO WE KNOW? > > That is the question you keep avoiding in an attempt to have both abortion as murder and misscarriage not included. \*\*\* > > Again, you miss the point. It’s not about what I think, it’s about wives, sisters, daughters etc. having to go through a criminal investigation to prove they did not deliberatly or in any other way “cause” the death of the unborn. > > Who needs that? OK, a bit clearer. But again, and sorry t keep belaboring the point, this is what you said earlier: "If abortion is murder, then misscarriage is invoulantary manslaughter. It’s undeniable. " Now you seem to admit that miscarriage is not “undeniably” manslaughter. Your objection is that there would have to be an investigation to determine if it is manslaughter. You do understand that miscarriage could simply no an accident, no crime at all now? And your only objection is that an investigation would be necessary? And you retract your claim that “If abortion is murder, then misscarriage is invoulantary manslaughter. It’s undeniable?” ---
**Author:** ![Mozart1220](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Mozart1220](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mozart1220)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-amend-the-constitution-to-ban-abortion-opponents/554109/115 "2010-09-21T21:54:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > > [@Mozart1220](#): > > > > \*\*\*I am in no way “hung up”. \*\*\* > > . > > . > > . > > \*\*\*Again, I agree with that, but until there is an investigation, HOW DO WE KNOW? > > > > That is the question you keep avoiding in an attempt to have both abortion as murder and misscarriage not included. \*\*\* > > > > Again, you miss the point. It’s not about what I think, it’s about wives, sisters, daughters etc. having to go through a criminal investigation to prove they did not deliberatly or in any other way “cause” the death of the unborn. > > > > Who needs that? > > OK, a bit clearer. > > But again, and sorry t keep belaboring the point, this is what you said earlier: > > "If abortion is murder, then misscarriage is invoulantary manslaughter. It’s undeniable. " > > Now you seem to admit that miscarriage is not “undeniably” manslaughter. Your objection is that there would have to be an investigation to determine if it is manslaughter. > > \*\*\*As opposed to INVOULANTARY manslaughter. You keep leaving that part out. \*\*\* > You do understand that miscarriage could simply no an accident, no crime at all now? > > \*\*\*Of course. If I read your post correctly. \*\*\* > And your only objection is that an investigation would be necessary? > > \*\*\*Not my only objection, but the main one. Have you ever known someone who’s suffered a miscarriage? It’s bad enough without cops and who knows who else involved. \*\*\* > And you retract your claim that “If abortion is murder, then misscarriage is invoulantary manslaughter. It’s undeniable?” > > \*\*\*I do NOT. Quit asking me that. \*\*\* You are spinning around and muddying the waters and missing the entire point, which is that if abortion (deliberate killing of a human being) is murder, then misscarriage (the accidental killing of a human being) MUST be AT LEAST “INVOULANTARY manslaughter”. Now dance some more while avoiding the inevitable logic I have repeatedly provided. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-amend-the-constitution-to-ban-abortion-opponents/554109/116 "2010-09-21T23:51:15Z")
> [@Mozart1220](#): > > You are spinning around and muddying the waters and missing the entire point, which is that if abortion (deliberate killing of a human being) is murder, then misscarriage (the accidental killing of a human being) MUST be AT LEAST “INVOULANTARY manslaughter”. > > Now dance some more while avoiding the inevitable logic I have repeatedly provided. Killing implies some sort of act, accidental or deliberate. A miscarriage is neither. When a child dies of swine flu, we don’t investigate the killing. There is no “killing”. The police aren’t required to investigate to see if the parents deliberately infected the child with the flu viurs. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-amend-the-constitution-to-ban-abortion-opponents/554109/117 "2010-09-21T23:59:44Z")
> [@Mozart1220](#): > > You are spinning around and muddying the waters and missing the entire point, which is that if abortion (deliberate killing of a human being) is murder, then misscarriage (the accidental killing of a human being) MUST be AT LEAST “INVOULANTARY manslaughter”. > > Now dance some more while avoiding the inevitable logic I have repeatedly provided. And yet every single time I ask you to actually define, specifically, what involuntary manslaughter is, you decline. So let me spell out plainly where you are mistaken: the accidental killing of a human being is NOT necessarily involuntary manslaughter. Repeat that fact over and over again in your head. If you kill someone by accident, it does not mean that you are guilty of manslaughter, voluntary or involuntary. So when you say, in capital letters no less, that the accidental killing of a human being MUST BE AT LEAST involuntary manslaughter, you are factually incorrect. The elements of involuntary manslaughter include a reckless or criminally negligent act. If you are acting without any negligence, or even with simple negligence, and someone dies as a result of your act, it’s not any kind of manslaughter. Manslaughter requires a higher degree of reckless behavior. So your premise is factually, and fatally, flawed, because you don’t have the slightest clue as to what the crime of manslaughter actually is, and are supremely indifferent to learning. ---
**Author:** ![Mozart1220](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Mozart1220](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mozart1220)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-amend-the-constitution-to-ban-abortion-opponents/554109/118 "2010-09-22T00:48:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > > [@Mozart1220](#): > > > > You are spinning around and muddying the waters and missing the entire point, which is that if abortion (deliberate killing of a human being) is murder, then misscarriage (the accidental killing of a human being) MUST be AT LEAST “INVOULANTARY manslaughter”. > > > > Now dance some more while avoiding the inevitable logic I have repeatedly provided. > > And yet every single time I ask you to actually define, specifically, what involuntary manslaughter is, you decline. > > \*\*\*I already did, several posts ago. \*\*\* > > So let me spell out plainly where you are mistaken: the accidental killing of a human being is NOT necessarily involuntary manslaughter. > > \*\*\*But it MIGHT be, thus the need for the INVESTIGATION. get it yet? \*\*\* > > Repeat that fact over and over again in your head. If you kill someone by accident, it does not mean that you are guilty of manslaughter, voluntary or involuntary. > > \*\*\*Repeat this fact over and over in YOUR head. You don’t KNOW what it is without the investiogation. get it yet? \*\*\* > > So when you say, in capital letters no less, that the accidental killing of a human being MUST BE AT LEAST involuntary manslaughter, you are factually incorrect. > > \*\*\*So when you say, in any font you want that you disregard the need for an investigation, you delfect from the primary point. \*\*\* > The elements of involuntary manslaughter include a reckless or criminally negligent act. If you are acting without any negligence, or even with simple negligence, and someone dies as a result of your act, it’s not any kind of manslaughter. Manslaughter requires a higher degree of reckless behavior. > > \*\*\*And how do we KNOW whether negligence or recklessness has occured or not? Wait for it… > > WE INVESTIGATE\*\*\* > So your premise is factually, and fatally, flawed, because you don’t have the slightest clue as to what the crime of manslaughter actually is, and are supremely indifferent to learning. And your response is factually, and fatally flawed, becuse you disregard the primary point. TO KNOW WHETHER IT IS A CRIME OR NOT, THERE MUST BE AN INVESTIGATION. Get it yet? No, I doubt you do…but keep dancing. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-amend-the-constitution-to-ban-abortion-opponents/554109/119 "2010-09-22T01:31:15Z")
> [@Mozart1220](#): > > And your response is factually, and fatally flawed, becuse you disregard the primary point. > > TO KNOW WHETHER IT IS A CRIME OR NOT, THERE MUST BE AN INVESTIGATION. > > Get it yet? No, I doubt you do…but keep dancing. But that’s true of every death. Every death would have to be investigated to know whether there is a crime involved. And yet, every death is not investigated. Why is that? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2010, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-amend-the-constitution-to-ban-abortion-opponents/554109/120 "2010-09-22T01:42:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But that’s true of every death. Every death would have to be investigated to know whether there is a crime involved. And yet, every death is not investigated. Why is that? Because most investigations of deaths are not about the indulgence of bigotry. Anti-abortion laws are. Harassing women is the whole point of passing such laws in the first place, and that’s how they will be enforced, to make life as unpleasant as possible for as many women as possible. It’s no different than passing a law enforcing segregation; even if the language is “separate but equal”, in reality the result will always be a persecution of non-whites because that’s what segregation is for. Just as laws against abortion have no other purpose than the persecution of women. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-amend-the-constitution-to-ban-abortion-opponents/554109.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-amend-the-constitution-to-ban-abortion-opponents/554109.md?page=7)