# Let's Analyze the Hell out of The Godfather Saga (here be spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 3, 2004, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383 "2004-07-03T17:39:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/54ee81/32.png) [@kka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kka)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/21 "2004-07-04T16:28:01Z")
In the second one, right when Kaye is telling Michael she had an abortion and she keeps repeating that Anthony is not “okay” amd Michael yells louder and louder to drown her voice out. What specifically were they talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/22 "2004-07-04T16:28:58Z")
Ah, thanks **LifeOnWry**. ---
**Author:** ![quiltguy154](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/ad7895/32.png) [@quiltguy154](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quiltguy154)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/23 "2004-07-04T20:13:35Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > Michael Gazzo did a great job as Frankie Pentangeli. But it would have been so much better if Coppola could have gone with his original plan to have Richard Castellano return and made it Clemenza who turned against Michael. Castellano unfortunately demanded too much money (he was, surprisingly, the highest paid actor in the first movie) and script control. With a last name of Gazzo, it’s no wonder he did such a good job in the part. Took a pair of _gazzi_ all right. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2004, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/24 "2004-07-04T22:31:15Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > I’ll admit it. I’ve watched _Part II_ four or five times, but I’m still not sure exactly who did waht to who in which order. The triangle of suspicion and lies between Michael, Frankie, and Hyman Roth is so intense it’s difficult to tell who actually committed the first betrayal. This cuts to the heart of why I don’t like Part II as much as the original–too many loose ends, unanswered questions and unclear character motivations. De Niro’s section of the sequels could stand on its own as a nice–albeit short–movie. The rest of it doesn’t hold up as well. It often seems like a bunch of random scenes edited together. A lot of the dialogue seems to consist of non-sequiturs. And that clunky scene with Michael and Kay in the hotel room–yecch! ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2004, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/25 "2004-07-05T00:09:43Z")
> [@Dr. Rieux](#): > > This cuts to the heart of why I don’t like Part II as much as the original–too many loose ends, unanswered questions and unclear character motivations. > De Niro’s section of the sequels could stand on its own as a nice–albeit short–movie. The rest of it doesn’t hold up as well. It often seems like a bunch of random scenes edited together. A lot of the dialogue seems to consist of non-sequiturs. And that clunky scene with Michael and Kay in the hotel room–yecch! Interestingly, that’s one of the reasons I love the first two parts and can’t stand Part III. Parts I and II were deliberately murky, they leave you guessing at motivations and alliances and the backbrounds leading up to whatever is happening on the screen at the moment. Part III just tells you all this stuff through straight narrative passages, leaving nothing of mystery or darkness. Maybe the thinking was that a lot of viewers wouldn’t have seen the first two, and so they really dumbed it down. ---
**Author:** ![5\_time\_champ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/278dde/32.png) [@5\_time\_champ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5_time_champ)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2004, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/26 "2004-07-05T01:06:12Z")
> [@kka](#): > > In the second one, right when Kaye is telling Michael she had an abortion and she keeps repeating that Anthony is not “okay” amd Michael yells louder and louder to drown her voice out. What specifically were they talking about? Kay says _“His friends are your button-men.”_ They are imprisoned in the Tahoe estate, and Kay is now concerned that Anthony is having nothing even close to a normal childhood. I had seen the movie a dozen times and could not make out what she was saying. Here is a transcript [http://www.jgeoff.com/godfather/gf2/transcript/gf2transcript.html](http://www.jgeoff.com/godfather/gf2/transcript/gf2transcript.html) ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2004, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/27 "2004-07-05T01:32:22Z")
One thing that I always wondered about: The Corleones first meet with Sollozzo, and The Turk is lays out the terms agreable to himself and the Tattaglia family. When the Don first demures, Sollozzo tells them the Tattaglia’s will guarantee the investment in case of trouble. Sonny is incredulous. He blurts outs “Aw, you telling me that the Tattaglias guarantee our investment?” The Don shuts him down immediately, chides him gently in front of Sollozzo, and then more harshly once The Turk has left. I think we are to understand here that Sonny may have made a mortal error, that by speaking his mind, he has revealed his enthusiasm for the deal. Sollozzo says as much when he meets with Tom after the hit on Don Corleone. It seems the Don may at least suspect this, which is why he sends Luca Brasi to see what Sollozzo “has under his fingernails.” Then the Don goes out in broad daylight, gets hit, his top button-man is garrotted, and Sollozzo is left in apparently invincible position under McCluskey’s protection. The Turk says Don Corleone was “slippin’”. Boy, I’ll say! I just have to wonder: DID Sonney’s outburst in fact give Sollozzo the idea a hit on the Don would be good business, was the Don aware of this, and, if so, why didn’t he take more precautions? At this point, my sensibilities were a bit strained. It just seems like the Don would be too crafty to send himself and his most trusted henchman into an ambush if he thought the danger was so immediate, but at the same time, if there wasn’t a perception of such danger, why was Sonny’s outburst such a big deal? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2004, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/28 "2004-07-05T01:37:08Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > It just seems like the Don would be too crafty to send himself and his most trusted henchman into an ambush if he thought the danger was so immediate, but at the same time, if there wasn’t a perception of such danger, why was Sonny’s outburst such a big deal? That’s just business. Never seem too eager; never let 'em know what you’re _really_ thinking. Don Corleone obviously didn’t expect the deal to be so important to Sollozzo. ---
**Author:** ![LifeOnWry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/96bed5/32.png) [@LifeOnWry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeOnWry)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2004, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/29 "2004-07-05T02:31:37Z")
It also has a little to do with the fact that, if the Tattaglias guarantee the investment, that means that Sollozzo and the Tattaglias could do this without Corleone - and it means Sollozzo needs the Don for something other than his financial investment. He needs the Don’s influence over cops and judges. The Don refuses because he knows Sollozzo is dirty - he’s a known pimp - and can’t be protected by these cops and judges. Sonny’s outburst was juvenile greed - we can get something for nothing - and by showing he’s eager to take the deal, he indicates that if his father wasn’t in the way, he’d sign on with the Turk. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2004, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/30 "2004-07-05T03:04:05Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > The Turk says Don Corleone was “slippin’”. Boy, I’ll say! I just have to wonder: DID Sonney’s outburst in fact give Sollozzo the idea a hit on the Don would be good business, was the Don aware of this, and, if so, why didn’t he take more precautions? At this point, my sensibilities were a bit strained. It just seems like the Don would be too crafty to send himself and his most trusted henchman into an ambush if he thought the danger was so immediate, but at the same time, if there wasn’t a perception of such danger, why was Sonny’s outburst such a big deal? Vito was one of the “Moustache Pete’s” that the younger guys sneered at. Vito viewed things from the point of view of business with violence something that should generally be avoided. (But enough to keep the threat in everyone’s minds.) Sollozzo going after Vito without (as yet) good justification is part of the general breakdown the real Cosa Nostra was going thru at the time. The younger guys were too brash and resorted to violence too soon. The older guys preferred negotiation and indirect attacks. (Note how differently Michael takes care of things when he gets full control.) And remember, it was Barzini all along. If Vito had known that, he would have been far more cautious. As for Sonny’s error, Vito told him right after the meeting what he did wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2004, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/31 "2004-07-05T03:39:43Z")
> [@LifeOnWry](#): > > Lucy Mancini - Sonny’ lover and the purported mother of Vincent - moves to Vegas and strikes up a relationship with a doctor after Sonny’ death. She ends up working for the family indirectly as a stockholder in the casino. No mention in the book whatsoever about a child she had with Sonny - in fact, after Sonny dies, one of Vito’s capos asks Lucy if she is pregnant and she says no. I haven’t read the books so is it possible that when she was asked about being pregnant, she just lied? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2004, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/32 "2004-07-05T03:51:46Z")
> [@](#): > > This cuts to the heart of why I don’t like Part II as much as the original–too many loose ends, unanswered questions and unclear character motivations. My guess is that if we study it enough, we’d see it was Michael that made the first move towards betrayal. This was essentially the theme of the second movie; Michael didn’t trust anyone and by his mistrust made the people around him betray him. ---
**Author:** ![LifeOnWry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/96bed5/32.png) [@LifeOnWry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeOnWry)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2004, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/33 "2004-07-05T05:39:41Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > I haven’t read the books so is it possible that when she was asked about being pregnant, she just lied? Er, no. There are situatons with that character that come up later that preclude that from being a possibility. ---
**Author:** ![Abbie\_Carmichael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/49beb7/32.png) [@Abbie\_Carmichael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abbie_Carmichael)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2004, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/34 "2004-07-05T06:13:29Z")
The reason Michael went bezerk when Kate had an abortion wasn’t so much about her getting an abortion, I think. One, Michael wasn’t a very devout Catholic, so if Kate’s abortion had, for some reason, suited his purposes, he wouldn’t have gotten all uppity about it. Two, his little pansyass brother Fredo kept knocking up all sorts of waitresses in Vegas, enough to where he had to keep a guy on staff to do abortions, who is the same guy that later married Lucy Mancini in the book after he did the surgery on her to fix her giant vagina. (I seem to recall something in the book about how Lucy was suicidal after Sonny was killed and the family felt responsible for her and so they set her up with a job in Vegas.) Anyhow, had Michael had a problem with abortion, he probably could have slapped Fredo around and made him at least wear a friggin’ condom. No, the reason Michael lost it had to do with the book. Apollonia was 2 months pregnant when she got blown up in the car, so Michael had to deal with losing both wife and baby. Finding out that Kate had had an abortion brought back memories of him losing his first baby, and now here’s Kate going “yeah, it’s gotta stop somewhere.” It was a control thing for him. Two of his kids dead and he couldn’t do a damn thing to stop it. > [@LifeOnWry](#): > > The Don refuses because he knows Sollozzo is dirty - he’s a known pimp - and can’t be protected by these cops and judges. Was he a pimp, too? I thought he was just into heroin. The Don had no problem with hookers (although he didn’t partake himself; according to the book he was a meat-and-potatoes kinda guy when it came to sex). I always thought the Don was afraid of Luca. Luca respected him, true, but he wasn’t afraid of anybody, and I think he was worried that maybe Luca would one day turn on him. I think he set Luca up to get whacked, which of course he needed anyway because he was one evil SOB. I mean, shoving his own baby into a furnace (per the book)? WTF? And now for my short observations: 1. Diane Keaton sucked, big time, as Kate. 2. Luca should have taken out the movie director while he was cutting the horse’s head off because the guy was a pedophile, which the Don knew because Tom Hagin saw the kid in the guy’s mansion. 3. Sofia Coppola’s best acting was in the christening scene. She ruined G3, which wasn’t very good anyway, and Lost in Translation is the biggest POS movie made since Battlefield Earth. ---
**Author:** ![Abbie\_Carmichael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/49beb7/32.png) [@Abbie\_Carmichael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abbie_Carmichael)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2004, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/35 "2004-07-05T06:21:41Z")
Dammit, I knew I’d forget something: Does anyone know how old Connie was when she got married? The book drops some dates here and there and I think once I figured up that she was, like, 16? That can’t possibly be right! ---
**Author:** ![LifeOnWry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/96bed5/32.png) [@LifeOnWry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeOnWry)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2004, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/36 "2004-07-05T06:22:56Z")
> [@Abbie Carmichael](#): > > Was he a pimp, too? I thought he was just into heroin. The Don had no problem with hookers (although he didn’t partake himself; according to the book he was a meat-and-potatoes kinda guy when it came to sex). The Don disapproved of trafficking in women, period. There’s no way Vito had Luca Brasi whacked - he was evil, yeah, but he was an evil the Don could use and respect. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2004, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/37 "2004-07-05T13:38:30Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > Vito was one of the “Moustache Pete’s” that the younger guys sneered at. Vito viewed things from the point of view of business with violence something that should generally be avoided. (But enough to keep the threat in everyone’s minds.) Sollozzo going after Vito without (as yet) good justification is part of the general breakdown the real Cosa Nostra was going thru at the time. The younger guys were too brash and resorted to violence too soon. The older guys preferred negotiation and indirect attacks. (Note how differently Michael takes care of things when he gets full control.) > > And remember, it was Barzini all along. If Vito had known that, he would have been far more cautious. > > As for Sonny’s error, Vito told him right after the meeting what he did wrong. I guess the attack must have seemed a little out-of-character even for The Turk, now that I think of it…I do recall Tom saying “He’s very good with a knife, but only in matters of business, or some reasonable complaint.” ---
**Author:** ![Agrippina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8797f3/32.png) [@Agrippina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agrippina)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2004, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/38 "2004-07-05T15:55:01Z")
> [@Abbie Carmichael](#): > > Dammit, I knew I’d forget something: > > Does anyone know how old Connie was when she got married? > > The book drops some dates here and there and I think once I figured up that she was, like, 16? That can’t possibly be right! According to [this Godfather site](http://www.jgeoff.com/godfather.html), Connie was born in 1923. So she would have been twenty-two. [The timeline can be found here](http://www.jgeoff.com/godfather/timeline.txt). ---
**Author:** ![SlyFrog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@SlyFrog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlyFrog)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2004, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/39 "2004-07-05T16:29:16Z")
> [@LifeOnWry](#): > > The Don disapproved of trafficking in women, period. No drugs or prostitution. What did the Don approve of? Gambling, but only on Saturdays nights when there is a full moon? ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2004, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/40 "2004-07-05T16:39:52Z")
Well, stealing, obviously. Isn’t that how he got his start? Also “protection.” IIRC there is a reference in GFII to running rum from Cuba with Roth. So bootlegging is o.k. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383.md?page=3)