# Let's Analyze the Hell out of The Godfather Saga (here be spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 3, 2004, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383 "2004-07-03T17:39:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![lisacurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/41988e/32.png) [@lisacurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisacurl)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/81 "2004-07-06T21:59:05Z")
> [@litost](#): > > I simply love the scene where Brando says: “Tattaglia’s a pimp. He never could’ve out-fought Santino. But I didn’t know until this day that it was Barzini all along.” AR nitpick… the line is “He never could have out-_foxed_ Santino.” ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/82 "2004-07-06T22:15:02Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Two questions I’ve always had: > (1) Luca Brazi: the tough guy who gets garrotted…he did something terrible in the book…what was it? It seems when he was younger, Brazi was out sowing his wild oats, and one of his mistresses got pregnant. After she gives birth, a nanny is taking care of the child, and Brazi forces the nanny to throw said child into a furnace. (Or something like that, I forget the details, but he does have the child thrown into a furnace). ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2004, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/83 "2004-07-06T23:54:26Z")
> [@McDeath\_the\_Mad](#): > > A couple of things I’ll pipe in on. > > 1. In GFI during the restaraunt scene, what is Michael and the other guy saying in Italian? There are no sub titles on my DVD, or on my VHS version. I can only give a vague answer to this because it’s been a while since I’ve seen the movie, but nobody else seems to have responded. Before Michael goes to get the gun, Sollozzo is saying he’s sorry about what happened to his father, but business is business, etc. When he comes back, Sollozzo is going on about how he can’t let another man hold him back, and he had the support of the other Dons, but he will keep the peace until Vito gets well enough to negotiate. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/84 "2004-07-07T00:15:07Z")
> [@Abbie Carmichael](#): > > I never can remember: which boy was the oldest? Fredo or Sonny? > > And wasn’t Fredo really sickly as a kid? I always thought maybe that’s why he was such a wus his whole life. Sonny is oldest – he was a baby when Vito brought the stolen carpet home in GFII. Later, it shows baby Fredo with pneumonia. I always took it that he was weak both physically and emotionally. In the book I recall that they described him as being a slick “ladies’ man” type, although somewhat effeminate and dissolute. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/85 "2004-07-07T01:01:00Z")
So was Fredo’s case of infant pneumonia supposed to be the cause of his physical and mental weakness? ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/86 "2004-07-07T01:05:54Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > So was Fredo’s case of infant pneumonia supposed to be the cause of his physical and mental weakness? I think it’s more a plot and character development matter. Remember that his weakness is first brought up in GFI. GFII gives you a back story that to me, simply suggests that he was simply weak. Couldn’t resist illness, temptation, stress in general. I suppose it’s also possible that in pre-antibiotic days a serious infection and high fever could have caused brain damage. ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/87 "2004-07-07T10:34:35Z")
> [@Amanita](#): > > AR nitpick… the line is “He never could have out-_foxed_ Santino.” It doesn’t look like it. Here’s a copy of the script: [http://www.jgeoff.com/godfather/gf1/transcript/gf1transcript.html](http://www.jgeoff.com/godfather/gf1/transcript/gf1transcript.html) In fact, the text is available as a sound clip, and Vito does say “out-fought” clearly. Here’s a link to the clip: [http://www.jgeoff.com/godfather/gf1/ram/tattaglia.ram](http://www.jgeoff.com/godfather/gf1/ram/tattaglia.ram) ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/88 "2004-07-07T12:02:19Z")
…is one of the more interesting characters in the GODFATHER. When Michael visits Roth in Cuba, Roth makes nice to him, relating how he (Roth) and Don Vito “did business together” during Prohibition…presumably this was bootleegging rum from Cuba? Anyway, Roth lives in Miami, in a modest suburban house, and watches the baseball games, and eats tuna fish sandwiches (made by his spinster daughter). What kind of lifestyle is this!! for a millionaire gangster? I prefer the italian mobsters…they at least enjoyed their money (big suburban NJ estates, with gaudy furniture and swimming pools). Roth was modelledupon the famous jewish gangster Meyer Lansky, who (I’m told) ran most of the gambling casinos in Havana. Was the real Lansky such a cheap old miser? Why stael all of that money if you don’t enjoy it? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/89 "2004-07-07T20:24:38Z")
> [@](#): > > What kind of lifestyle is this!! for a millionaire gangster? Believe it or not there is a [meyerlansky.com](http://www.meyerlansky.com/DOCS/home.html). Its maintained by his family and portrays him as an American icon. I seem to recall that this is a pretty accurate portrayal. I may have seen it on 60 minutes. I’ll try to cite. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/90 "2004-07-07T20:44:40Z")
All of the websites say about the same [thing](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meyer_Lansky). Most at least imply he tried to live out the rest of his life quietly in Florida. He didn’t go [easy](http://site33134.dellhost.com/id136.htm) it seems.No one knows where the 400 million is and his family claims not to know. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/91 "2004-07-07T21:24:44Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > It seems when he was younger, Brazi was out sowing his wild oats, and one of his mistresses got pregnant. After she gives birth, a nanny is taking care of the child, and Brazi forces the nanny to throw said child into a furnace. (Or something like that, I forget the details, but he does have the child thrown into a furnace). There was also an anecdote concerning the time Al Capone sent some associates to New York looking to expand their operations. Luca & Vito captured them; Luca chopped them up in pieces (alive) and mailed them back to Chicago (I may be fuzzy on the details; it’s been a while since I read the book). But you’re probably thinking of the baby/furnace story. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/92 "2004-07-07T21:37:19Z")
Hyman Roth = Meyer Lansky Moe Greene = Benjamin “Bugsy” Siegel Vito Corleone = Joseph Bonanno (?) Michael Corleone = ??? ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/93 "2004-07-07T21:47:22Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > …Anyway, Roth lives in Miami, in a modest suburban house, and watches the baseball games, and eats tuna fish sandwiches (made by his spinster daughter). What kind of lifestyle is this!! for a millionaire gangster? I prefer the italian mobsters…they at least enjoyed their money (big suburban NJ estates, with gaudy furniture and swimming pools). That’s his daughter? I thought she was his (trophy) wife. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/94 "2004-07-07T23:28:22Z")
> [@Sublight](#): > > Then there’s also the warning it sends to others: “you think you can cross me and get away with it? Just look what I did to my own brother. You so much as blink at me the wrong way and your entire family is history!” But in Part III (which is dreadful; sorry you apologists), Connie refers to Fredo’s death and she genuinely appears to believe it was a boating accident. How can you send a message if you don’t own up to the deed? Or is it understood by everyone except Connie? Or is Connie going senile, since she should remember what they did to her husband? Or is it simply that the film is badly written? ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/95 "2004-07-07T23:39:32Z")
> [@ArchiveGuy](#): > > But in Part III (which is dreadful; sorry you apologists), Connie refers to Fredo’s death and she genuinely appears to believe it was a boating accident. How can you send a message if you don’t own up to the deed? Or is it understood by everyone except Connie? Or is Connie going senile, since she should remember what they did to her husband? Or is it simply that the film is badly written? Badly written. And inconsistent. It took Connie no time to figure out Michael had Carlo whacked, which apparently Kay was willing to disbelieve; and Connie knew that Fredo had double-crossed Michael. Both Kay and Tony somehow figured out Michael had the button pushed on Fredo, so wtf was going on with Connie that she didn’t put it together as well? Are we to think Connie has somehow become stupid overnight, or that she’s in a state of denial? I’ve seen some write that GFIII was the only episode that (unfortunately) could be defined by a bad performance (Sofia C. as Mary). Actually, I think that’s being too generous. I don’t think Sofia was the worst of it, sadly. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/96 "2004-07-07T23:40:58Z")
To the extent that III makes any sense at all, I think your first guess is most likely. Everybody else says, yeah, right. Boating accident. Riiiiight. IMHO a lot of stuff in III does not hang together. ---
**Author:** ![AveDementia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc8723/32.png) [@AveDementia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AveDementia)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/97 "2004-07-08T00:45:04Z")
Could someone spoil Three for me? The Ave household watched all the Godfather movies at one point in time, but three was so awful I shut it off a few seconds after Aveguy nodded off on the couch. He didn’t bother to finish watching it when he woke up, either. I guess it was just that Michael seemed to have turned into a psycho, and it was just too painful to sit through two hours of his cold-blooded insanity. I detest movies about psycho assholes with little to no redeeming qualities to them (see Scarface, Falling Down). Also, three was the Godfather movie Winona Ryder was supposed to be in, right? Does anyone know what part she was supposed to play? I think it was just after Mermaids, she went to Italy then came down with a stomach virus or something and backed out. I just can’t picture her in the world of “The Godfather” with her little doe-eyed waif persona. ---
**Author:** ![Backwater\_Under\_Duck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ba8739/32.png) [@Backwater\_Under\_Duck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Backwater_Under_Duck)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/98 "2004-07-08T00:45:32Z")
In GFII at Mama Corleone’s funeral (quick trivia: what was her first name?), Connie comes to Michael and offers her complete submission. I want to come back home, Michael, and take care of you - something close to that. She essentially gives up all anger, thoughts of vengence, mistrust. Everything that used to separate her from her family. She gives Michael _ALL_ of the respect, love and deference once reserved for the old man. Survival instinct? Probably that more than love. But after that, she’s completely in denial about Fredo’s murder - the only way she can handle it. Boating accident, yeah, that’s it. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/99 "2004-07-08T00:51:02Z")
> [@AveDementia](#): > > … **movies about psycho assholes with little to no redeeming qualities to them** (see Scarface, Falling Down)… I have to start a thread using that as a title – I love the phrase. Also, I really like both _Scarface_ AND _Falling Down_. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2004, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383/100 "2004-07-08T00:57:20Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > About Kay. As has been noted. Michael was rebelling against his family during the WWII years. Dating a white-bread protestant girl was the opposite of what his father would have wanted. Where is it stated that Kay is Protestant? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-analyze-the-hell-out-of-the-godfather-saga-here-be-spoilers/253383.md?page=6)