# Let's approach this vagina delicately... **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 6, 2001, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-approach-this-vagina-delicately/56980 "2001-03-06T19:33:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pluto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f08c70/32.png) [@pluto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pluto)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2001, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-approach-this-vagina-delicately/56980/21 "2001-03-07T22:09:12Z")
Here’s another, quite different, viewpoint: [http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/leo.html](http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/leo.html) ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2001, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-approach-this-vagina-delicately/56980/22 "2001-03-08T01:12:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jarbabyj \* > **they weren’t creating a real vagina complete with self lubrication and clitoris** Uh, dear, I’ve never met a vagina that came with its own clitoris. True, the two are often found in proximity, but the clitoris is most definitely not part of the vagina. ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2001, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-approach-this-vagina-delicately/56980/23 "2001-03-08T01:37:22Z")
Yeah, that’s another viewpoint, all right. Different, too. Granted, I tend to disagree with John Leo almost as a knee-jerk reaction, so I’m not the most bias-free person to respond to him. Nonetheless, here we go- all quotes are genuine, and as brief as possible, so you should read the linked article to understand them. Oh, and it’s still gonna be damn long 😛 > [@](#): > > **[http://www.jewishworldreview.com](http://www.jewishworldreview.com) – A > media boom is underway on behalf of transgender > men and women.** No more now than in the past. Remember Phil Donahue in a skirt? Caroline Cossey in Playboy? How about Christine Jorgensen forty years ago? The main difference now, if any, is that media pieces on the transgendered tend not to be the condescending or outright mocking pieces you might have seen in prior years. That’s a good thing, by the way. > [@](#): > > \*\*Like most homosexual groups, \*\*[San Francisco’s] > \*\*large gay population is basically committed to the > transgender cause. \*\* Sure. After all, you’re talking about a group that society has long defined solely based on their sexual behavior;who many very “polite” people were brought up to consider “disgusting” or “sinful”; who are even supposed by many church leaders to be specifically condemned in the Bible; and who run the risk, just by going outside, that some macho asshole is going to call them a faggot, or worse, attempt to beat them up. And, separately, you’ve got the gay community. Gay and transgendered activists tend to get along because they have the same basic goal; they want society not to collectively look at them and go “eew”. > [@](#): > > **Gay empathy and power in > Hollywood help explain the surge of cross-dressing > and changed-sex characters appearing in movies > and on television.** No. If there was an actual surge somewhere, I sure missed it. If there was some change in the entertainment industry that somehow put gay people in charge, I sure missed that too. This is just a bunch of social conservative hot-buttons piled on top of each other, with nary an actual fact to be seen. It’s bile-raising language, nothing more. > [@](#): > > \*\*It **[The trans rights movement]** locates the source of the problem in society, when the focus should surely be on the hormonal or psychiatric factors that cause some people to hate their own bodies and reject their own sex. \*\* No. These are two different issues: the question of how best to treat transsexualism (or other species of transgenderism), and the question of how society should treat the transgendered. Addressing one has no bearing on the other. > [@](#): > > **In 1992, writing on sex-change operations in the > American Scholar, (Paul McHugh) said: "We don’t do liposuction on anorexics. Why amputate the genitals of these poor men? Surely the fault is in the mind, > not the member."** This is a totally false analogy. Anorexics have a psychological condition which causes them to harm themselves; they will continue to harm themselves regardless of their physical form. Obviously, surgical treatment is completely uwarranted: it would offer no benefit (reason enough not to engage in it needlessly), and quite probably would speed up their physical deterioration. By contrast, the psychological aspect of transsexualism does not cause any desire to harm oneself. Rather, it merely causes a desire for an alteration of the body to fit the mind of the transsexual. The only ethical requirement on the part of the doctors performing SRS is to determine that surgery will not result in physical or psychological harm to their patient, and good doctors are very scrupulous about this- requiring that that an applicant for surgery prove to them that they really are transgendered. If a patient desires cosmentic surgery, they have given informed consent, and have demonstrated that there will not be any negative quality of life because of the surgery, any doctor would feel that they have a right to have that procedure.In this case, there are actual positive consequences to surgery. I suppose the other option is the one used by so-called “ex-gay treatments”- just keep telling them “shame on you” until they hate whatever part of themselves you’re trying to suppress. Wanna bet that results in a very low level of effective treatment? Remember, first do no harm. Mods, I apologize for the extensive quoting above, but I felt it necessary to respond to the link pluto posted. Please don’t kill me. Oh, and apologies in advance for your having to move this to GD 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2001, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-approach-this-vagina-delicately/56980/24 "2001-03-08T04:57:16Z")
The morality of sex change operations has been discussed elsewhere on this board (see, for example, [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=51200)). ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2001, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-approach-this-vagina-delicately/56980/25 "2001-03-08T05:15:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by plnnr \* > > \*\*“It does everything a vagina is supposed to do.” Can there be any higher praise? \*\* > > Wow, you can give birth through your anus? I didn’t know that! Once again, the Straight Dope fights a little ignorance. > > 😉 > \*\* Of course! Where do you think jerks come from? Robin ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2001, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-approach-this-vagina-delicately/56980/26 "2001-03-08T06:07:58Z")
Damn you, **msrobyn**! You beat me to it! I was going to say, “How do you think we got John Leo?” 😛 ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2001, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-approach-this-vagina-delicately/56980/27 "2001-03-08T14:57:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KellyM \* > > Uh, dear, I’ve never met a vagina that came with its own clitoris. True, the two are often found in proximity, but the clitoris is most definitely not part of the vagina. Yes, I know. I’m sorry for saying that as well. What I was implying was the construction of full female GENTALIA as opposed to just a HOLE for a penis to fit into. I think I’d better lay off the keyboard for a while. jarbaby [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-approach-this-vagina-delicately/56980.md?page=1)