# Let's be forthright about the tax cuts **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 15, 2018, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407 "2018-09-15T21:08:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2018, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/21 "2018-09-16T13:16:04Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If you read you’re own cite it shows revenue is up, not down: Federal spending rose by 7%, outpacing revenue gains of 1%. > > [We’re taking in record revenue](https://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-records-largest-ever-monthly-budget-surplus-in-april-as-individual-tax-receipts-boom-2018-05-10): The U.S. took in $510 billion in receipts in April and spent $296 billion, leaving the Treasury with a record monthly surplus of $214 billion. The prior record, set in April 2001, was about $190 billion. Typical Republican cherry picking: “This one month was GREAT in this mostly meaningless way, so the future is SO ROSY! And disco record sales from 1976-1978 were up 125%, so if this trend continues… ayyyyyy!” Fact is that the cost of the tax cuts is estimated to increase the deficit by about $2.3 trillion, and the economic benefits are maybe $500 billion, meaning your tax cut is raising the debt by about $1.6 trillion. [How the 2017 Tax Act Affected CBO’s Economic and Budget Projections | Congressional Budget Office](https://www.cbo.gov/publication/53743) > [@](#): > > The last president doubled the deficit of every President before him COMBINED. Yeah, the deficit is going to go up in a major recession. And Trump is benefiting by inheriting an economy that wasn’t hungstrung by stupid ideas, like balancing the budget is more important that getting people back to work. > [@](#): > > The last president doubled the deficit of every President before him COMBINED. Let me refresh your memory of what Obama said about his predecessors’ debt increase: It’s irresponsible, it’s unpatriotic"]Let me refresh your memory of what Obama said about his predecessors’ debt increase: It’s irresponsible, it’s unpatriotic Obama proposed to pay for his spending. Bush and Trump do not. This is exactly why fiscal conservatism should not be thought to be policies that favor balancing the budget, because Obama did continuously propose measures to bring the deficit down, but conservatives rejected them. Instead, fiscal conservatism is actually a policy that favors tax cuts no matter what the circumstances with no regard for deficits. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2018, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/22 "2018-09-16T14:38:33Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Er, the other way around … How much did you pay in state taxes last year? You know you can still claim the first $10,000, right? I would be surprised if you pay more than that. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2018, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/23 "2018-09-16T14:54:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > [We’re taking in record revenue](https://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-records-largest-ever-monthly-budget-surplus-in-april-as-individual-tax-receipts-boom-2018-05-10): The U.S. took in $510 billion in receipts in April and spent $296 billion, leaving the Treasury with a record monthly surplus of $214 billion. The prior record, set in April 2001, was about $190 billion. > [@Ravenman](#): > > Typical Republican cherry picking: “This one month was GREAT in this mostly meaningless way, so the future is SO ROSY! And disco record sales from 1976-1978 were up 125%, so if this trend continues… ayyyyyy!” I love it! Income taxes are due in April –\> we take in “record revenue”. Let’s see, I get paid every two weeks. But if, on my next payday, you were to ask me what my salary is, I could report my _two-week paycheck_ as my \*daily \*rate of pay, thereby giving myself a 1000% raise! ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2018, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/24 "2018-09-16T15:21:24Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > How much did you pay in state taxes last year? You know you can still claim the first $10,000, right? I would be surprised if you pay more than that. This. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2018, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/25 "2018-09-16T15:38:31Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > I love it! Income taxes are due in April –\> we take in “record revenue”. > > Let’s see, I get paid every two weeks. But if, on my next payday, you were to ask me what my salary is, I could report my _two-week paycheck_ as my \*daily \*rate of pay, thereby giving myself a 1000% raise! There there, he reported a factual fact, didn’t he? Some people like steak, some like lobster; some like statistics that _inform_, some like statistics that _spin_; some like baseball, some like football. America prides itself on such diversity. But since you had to go and brag about your income, let me mention that last night for a few minutes I was experiencing orgasms at the rate of 200 per day, 1400 per week. Tiring. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2018, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/26 "2018-09-16T19:17:47Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > How much did you pay in state taxes last year? You know you can still claim the first $10,000, right? I would be surprised if you pay more than that. Also, it depends on whether his state splits the tax burden between sales and income taxes, or does just one or the other. Because somewhere along the way, the GOP decided that you could deduct either sales or income taxes, but not both. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2018, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/27 "2018-09-16T21:55:54Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If you read you’re own cite it shows revenue is up, not down: Federal spending rose by 7%, outpacing revenue gains of 1%. By the way, you know the top item contributing to the increase in spending? Interest on the debt. It grew by 50% more than collections grew on withholding on individual income taxes. And, corporate tax revenues declined by like 25% more than interest payments increased - that’s a double whammy. Now that’s Republican fiscal values right there: cut taxes in order to pay Wall Street more to finance our debt. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2018, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/28 "2018-09-16T22:26:24Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > How much did you pay in state taxes last year? You know you can still claim the first $10,000, right? I would be surprised if you pay more than that. No, but I paid _much_ more than that in property and state taxes combined, which is what the cap is on. As do most people here. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2018, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/29 "2018-09-16T22:34:32Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Also, it depends on whether his state splits the tax burden between sales and income taxes, or does just one or the other. Because somewhere along the way, the GOP decided that you could deduct either sales or income taxes, but not both. I believe **Jack Batty** said that he was a warehouse laborer who just makes enough to pay his bills. > [@"\[irs](#): > > ([https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/individuals/sales-tax-deduction-calculator](https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/individuals/sales-tax-deduction-calculator))"]If you file a Form 1040, and itemize deductions on Schedule A, you have the option of claiming either state and local _income_ taxes **or** state and local _sales_ taxes … His description of his situation is not consistent with the sort of person who would itemize. It is just ever so delightful when a great tax deduction is made available to the people who can go to the extra effort to make use of it, which is usually not the majority of taxpayers. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2018, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/30 "2018-09-16T23:25:01Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Revenue is still on track to increase. [Cite](https://www.thebalance.com/current-u-s-federal-government-tax-revenue-3305762) > > We don’t have a tax revenue problem, we have a tax spending problem. It’s being driving by a series of [stop-gap budget approvals](https://www.concordcoalition.org/blog-post/high-cost-stop-gap-budget-measures) instead of going through the full budget process. The 2018 estimate is only 20 billion dollars more than the 2017 number, which is a decrease when inflation is included. With lower unemployment (more income taxes) and a good economy, revenue should be going up a lot more than this. And you should read your cite - which says that revenues should increase during times of prosperity. Tax cuts are better during recessions, not now. Saying we have a spending problem is shorthand for saying, once the recession does happen, that we can’t afford enhanced unemployment and food stamps because - _gasp_ - we have a deficit. Wonder how that happened. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/31 "2018-09-17T08:52:21Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Also, it depends on whether his state splits the tax burden between sales and income taxes, or does just one or the other. Because somewhere along the way, the GOP decided that you could deduct either sales or income taxes, but not both. That tax rule seems peculiar. Is there a logical reason for it? (Other than the obvious “Set the nerds to work figuring out what particular rules will screw ‘blue’ states and ‘blue’ voters.”) ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/32 "2018-09-17T09:23:54Z")
My tax returns (and ignorance of the minutia) besides, it doesn’t take away from the rest of my post. President Trump is doing nothing for us ham ‘n’ eggers and tax cuts for millionaires isn’t helping. Our only hope is for wages to keep up with inflation which works directly against the Republican plan. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/33 "2018-09-17T12:44:39Z")
I certainly agree that the deficit is unsustainably high, and should never have been allowed to get, or remain, this high. What is your prediction of what the deficit will be if Dems get control of the House? All spending bills originate there. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/34 "2018-09-17T12:49:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I certainly agree that the deficit is unsustainably high, and should never have been allowed to get, or remain, this high. What is your prediction of what the deficit will be if Dems get control of the House? All spending bills originate there. > > Regards, > Shodan Judging by the pattern set by Clinton, Bush, Obama and Trump? Barring a massive recession or a new ground war/occupation, lower than now. The idea that republicans care about the deficit and democrats don’t may have made sense at one point, but by now anyone who still believes that just hasn’t been paying attention. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/35 "2018-09-17T12:50:46Z")
By how much will it be lower, and how will that be brought about? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/36 "2018-09-17T12:52:56Z")
> [@TimeWinder](#): > > No, but I paid _much_ more than that in property and state taxes combined, which is what the cap is on. As do most people here. So do I. But assuming that calculator is right, I might actually pay less federal income tax this year. I had previously estimated it to go up. The reason is that the rates have been slightly lowered. I admit that I lost track of the details of the rates and brackets as they were being negotiated. The calculator recommends I take the increased standard deduction rather than itemize. One caveat on the calculator: it calculates state income tax for you, and Maryland (along with, I assume, some other states) has a highly variable tax rate, depending on what county you live in. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/37 "2018-09-17T12:57:34Z")
Another aside is that me getting a tax cut doesn’t change the point made in the OP, that tax cuts for the well-off (which I’m apparently considered) aren’t justified if they increase the deficit. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/38 "2018-09-17T13:29:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I certainly agree that the deficit is unsustainably high, and should never have been allowed to get, or remain, this high. What is your prediction of what the deficit will be if Dems get control of the House? All spending bills originate there. The deficit will go up, because the Republican White House will reject any attempt to raise revenue. On the other hand, if the Republicans retained control of Congress, the deficit would probably go up even faster, as evidenced by the rumors that they are looking at another round of tax cuts. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/39 "2018-09-17T13:32:52Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > My tax returns (and ignorance of the minutia) besides, it doesn’t take away from the rest of my post. … Here is your previous post in it’s entirety: > [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Well, I’m not going to make $100k this year. I’m not in the money. I’m a warehouse worker who makes just about as much as it takes to pay my bills. I have no 401k, I own no stocks. My insurance (through work) is prohibitively expensive for the lowest possible coverage, which is no fun when you’re 53 and you’re starting to fall apart, and I’ll probably have to pay more in taxes next year because I can no longer claim my federal taxes on my state return. So, fuck the GOP and their “tax reform,” I hope they all choke on their fucking caviar. If you’re conceding that the “I’ll probably have to pay more next year in taxes next year because I can no longer claim my federal taxes on my state return” portion was incorrect (and it sounds like you are), what’s left? A bit of personal history, an admission that ObamaCare didn’t fix the rising cost of health insurance, and “fuck the GOP”? Alrighty then. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/40 "2018-09-17T14:45:49Z")
Standard deductions are up, but personal exemptions are _zeroed_. For me, that’s a wash. Meanwhile, the Republicans have added a trillion and a half to the debt. Ain’t you proud? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407.md?page=3)