# Let's be forthright about the tax cuts **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 15, 2018, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407 "2018-09-15T21:08:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/81 "2018-09-18T14:35:02Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Also, it depends on whether his state splits the tax burden between sales and income taxes, or does just one or the other. Because somewhere along the way, the GOP decided that you could deduct either sales or income taxes, but not both. > [@septimus](#): > > That tax rule seems peculiar. Is there a logical reason for it? (Other than the obvious “Set the nerds to work figuring out what particular rules will screw ‘blue’ states and ‘blue’ voters.”) The only logic is political. Practically all states have sales taxes, but a lot of states - mostly red states - don’t have income taxes. Sales taxes hit the poor hardest and the rich hardly at all. State income taxes are usually regressive too, but not nearly as much. So Republicans don’t like state income taxes, and this measure basically punishes the people who live in (mostly blue) states that have them. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/82 "2018-09-18T14:38:47Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What makes these allegations “credible”. You didn’t provide a source for me to evaluate. Your word does not suffice on this matter. Here’s a libertarian commentator in a conservative magazine noting that people in blue states who are basically just keeping up with their neighbors are going to have to start paying more taxes. [http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-perspec-mcardle-blue-states-democrats-taxes-0518-20180517-story.html#](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-perspec-mcardle-blue-states-democrats-taxes-0518-20180517-story.html#) ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/83 "2018-09-18T14:52:24Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > … State income taxes are usually regressive too… Which states have “regressive” income taxes? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/84 "2018-09-18T15:03:24Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Which states have “regressive” income taxes? Try Google. I’m sure you can find a page that summarizes the differences between the income taxes of those states that have them. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/85 "2018-09-18T15:08:01Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > stack that up against ~$190B/year for the tax cuts and yeah, I guess I’m feeling pretty comfortable disputing that ‘these tax cuts will cost [me my] SS & Medicare’. “These tax cuts” amount to little more than a rounding error on SS & Medicare spending. I’d argue that 12% of the current Medicare & SS spending is not a “rounding error” using any generally accepted definition of the term. But it’s not just 12%, because that’s just how much Republicans _increased_ the deficit. Last year, based on those numbers, we borrowed 41% of the combined Medicare & SS spending. This year, thanks to the tax cuts, we’re going to be on pace to borrow 51%. If those projections you posted are accurate, the situation is only going to get much, much worse. The problem isn’t that $190B is a lot of money, it’s that it’s a step in the wrong direction. It’s a step in the wrong direction at a time when the right direction is obvious to anyone who cares to look, and it ultimately means that my children are going to have to suffer more than they otherwise would if the “adults” in the room weren’t being so goddamn irresponsible. Do you even care? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/86 "2018-09-18T15:50:10Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Try Google. I’m sure you can find a page that summarizes the differences between the income taxes of those states that have them. I’m not interested in what Google has to say. I’m interested in what you have to say. But if your response is to NOT offer a cite, or even an example, I guess that tells me plenty. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/87 "2018-09-18T15:59:43Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > … Do you even care? Yes. Previously I wrote: > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > … I’m somewhat sympathetic to the concerns over the budget deficit, but don’t feel that an extra $190B on a [$4.1T budget](https://www.cbo.gov/topics/budget) are worth more than a tidy sum of cold hard cash for me personally (and for most Americans). I’d prefer that the deficit were less (even better if we could make it zero). I think, on some level some Dems would too. The fundamental problem is that the federal government spends more than it collects and (speaking generally) the Dem’s solution is to collect more while the Rep’s solution is to spend less. Either _could_ work, but what happens in reality is that we end up spending _more_ and collecting _less_, because Republicans often don’t want to be seen as the ones cutting spending and Democrats often don’t want to be seen as the ones raising taxes. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/88 "2018-09-18T16:09:57Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Republicans often don’t want to be seen as the ones cutting spending and Democrats often don’t want to be seen as the ones raising taxes. Oh come off it, Obama tried like hell to get tax increases through and Republicans raked him through the fucking coals for it. Did you forget all of that? I mean,[look at how Republicans smear Obama](https://www.atr.org/obama-has-proposed-442-tax-hikes-taking-office) for being a tax and spend Democrat. > [@](#): > > Since taking office in 2009, President Barack Obama has formally proposed a total of 442 tax increases, according to an Americans for Tax Reform analysis of Obama administration budgets for fiscal years 2010 through 2015. > > The 442 total proposed tax increases does not include the 20 tax increases Obama signed into law as part of Obamacare. > > “History tells us what Obama was able to do. This list reminds us of what Obama wanted to do,” said Grover Norquist, president of Americans for Tax Reform. The problem isn’t that Democrats don’t want to raise taxes – they clearly do, because it needs to be done and they’re the only ones willing to do it. The problem is that people keep voting Republicans into office despite Republicans presenting no feasible strategy for curbing the deficit. That should infuriate you if you have any concept that the future is going to exist. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/89 "2018-09-18T16:13:34Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’d prefer that the deficit were less (even better if we could make it zero). I think, on some level some Dems would too. The fundamental problem is that the federal government spends more than it collects and (speaking generally) the Dem’s solution is to collect more while the Rep’s solution is to spend less. Either _could_ work, but what happens in reality is that we end up spending _more_ and collecting _less_, because Republicans often don’t want to be seen as the ones cutting spending and Democrats often don’t want to be seen as the ones raising taxes. Why, then, are you cheering this “tax reform” that collects less when Republican leadership shows no inclination toward cutting spending? Why aren’t you howling at the GOP to demonstrate fiscal discipline instead of buying off voters with short-term tax savings that undermine their children’s futures? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/90 "2018-09-18T16:23:32Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > … The problem isn’t that Democrats don’t want to raise taxes – they clearly do, because it needs to be done and they’re the only ones willing to do it. The problem is that people keep voting Republicans into office despite Republicans presenting no feasible strategy for curbing the deficit. … I don’t see that as being any more convincing than this: “The problem isn’t that Republicans don’t want to cut spending – they clearly do, because it needs to be done and they’re the only ones willing to do it. The problem is that people keep voting Democrats into office despite Democrats presenting no feasible strategy for curbing the deficit.” ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/91 "2018-09-18T16:28:18Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > Why, then, are you cheering this “tax reform” that collects less when Republican leadership shows no inclination toward cutting spending? Why aren’t you howling at the GOP to demonstrate fiscal discipline instead of buying off voters with short-term tax savings that undermine their children’s futures? For the same reason that Dems applaud when their elected officials increase spending but fail to “pay for it” with sufficient revenue-raising measure to cover the costs. We both have policy priorities we want to see realized, and don’t care sufficiently if the necessary downside (cutting spending in the case of R’s and raising taxes in the case of D’s) actually happens. Neither side is willing to give up their preferred solution to see that government revenues and outlays meet. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/92 "2018-09-18T16:37:12Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t see that as being any more convincing than this: > > “The problem isn’t that Republicans don’t want to cut spending – they clearly do, because it needs to be done and they’re the only ones willing to do it. The problem is that people keep voting Democrats into office despite Democrats presenting no feasible strategy for curbing the deficit.” Because you haven’t been paying attention? I’m sure a lot of low information voters would agree with you. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/93 "2018-09-18T16:41:07Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > … I mean,[look at how Republicans smear Obama](https://www.atr.org/obama-has-proposed-442-tax-hikes-taking-office) for being a tax and spend Democrat. … “they want to raise your taxes” and “they want to cut your SS/Medicare” are both potent political attacks. That’s a big part of what contributes to the dessert-but-no-vegetables behavior we get from Washington. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/94 "2018-09-18T16:42:34Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Because you haven’t been paying attention? I’m sure a lot of low information voters would agree with you. Everyone who disagrees with you must just not be paying attention, or be a low-information voter? :rolleyes: Who needs to “come off it” now? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/95 "2018-09-18T16:45:06Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Everyone who disagrees with you must just not be paying attention, or be a low-information voter? > > :rolleyes: > > Who needs to “come off it” now? Did I say anything of the sort? _Everyone_ who disagrees with me on _anything_? Really? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/96 "2018-09-18T16:47:36Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Both parties increase spending. The Democrats tell the truth about it and pay for the spending. How did the Democrats pay for their spending under Obama? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/97 "2018-09-18T16:52:18Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Not at all, I just wanted to know if it was a waste of time before digging up a quote. Given that you evaded the question, I suspect it would be. > Do your own econ homework. I’m no more interested in your tests than you apparently are in answering my questions. > Nothing particularly magical about $190B/year, although, to repeat myself, not “always”. Washington has yet to enact a tax cuts that made me go “oh shit guys, it’s too much, don’t do that”, but I’m open to the possibility that such a tax cuts could exist, at least in theory. > Sure. I doubt that the “temporary” tax cuts will be allowed to expire. It was savvy politics. > > What makes these allegations “credible”. You didn’t provide a source for me to evaluate. Your word does not suffice on this matter. > > Did you guess correctly? - You can’t name a single economist who supports the tax cuts. - You don’t know the most basic tenet of fiscal policy. - You might see a tax cut you disapprove of; you might see a blue unicorn. - You were happy to give the billionaires trillions so you could have your $1000. - you haven’t followed the discussion on deductions. Yes. I guessed correctly. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/98 "2018-09-18T16:53:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > How did the Democrats pay for their spending under Obama? > > Regards, > Shodan By letting the Bush tax cuts expire. We were also still recovering from a recession – not raising taxes, or cutting taxes, during an economic recession is perfectly fine and consistent with liberal economic theory. We never got to see what Democrats would have done in the later Obama years when the economy was better because Republicans took over congress and stonewalled every proposed attempt to raise taxes. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/99 "2018-09-18T16:58:05Z")
I’m rather surprised that nobody has brought up the “we need a balanced budget amendment!” farce. The only spending that Republicans have any interest in cutting is Social Security and Medicare. They’ve been trying to kill SS for 80 years and trying to kill Medicare for 50 years. Ending these programs is Paul Ryan’s ultimate masturbatory fantasy. If Republicans think they can cut spending, why don’t they? They control everything. Go ahead, point to specific spending that you’d eliminate. Before you shout “foreign aid!”, remember that it is a tiny portion of the budget. You’ve got defense spending and interest on the debt. Everything else is almost trivial. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/100 "2018-09-18T17:03:57Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > - You can’t name a single economist who supports the tax cuts. False, but since you appear to be unwilling to retract your assertion even in the face of evidence to the contrary, it seems like a waste of time to offer it. > [@septimus](#): > > - You don’t know the most basic tenet of fiscal policy. False, but explaining it to you does not interest me. > [@septimus](#): > > - You might see a tax cut you disapprove of; you might see a blue unicorn. True. You got one right. > [@septimus](#): > > - You were happy to give the billionaires trillions so you could have your $1000. False. What makes you think I’m only getting $1000? > [@septimus](#): > > - you haven’t followed the discussion on deductions. False. Where did you get the impression I wasn’t following it? I asked you for a cite, and was told “Try Google.” That declining to offer a cite for assertions pretty much ended the conversation. > [@septimus](#): > > Yes. I guessed correctly. No, no you did not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407.md?page=6)