# Let's be forthright about the tax cuts **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 15, 2018, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407 "2018-09-15T21:08:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/121 "2018-09-18T20:45:05Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Like I said, my preference would be something along the lines of the penny plan, with across-the-board cuts, perhaps with some carve-outs determined by Congress. I wasn’t advocating for food stamps to be cut in 2009 (but I don’t think I would have lifted a finger to oppose it if it were a realistic possibility). > > I’m guessing that this is where you’re headed with the food stamps argument, so I’ll meet you there: Yes, I’m fully aware that the food stamps program is also “little more than a rounding error” in our overall federal budget, and that cutting it, even to zero, wouldn’t solve our budget shortfall by itself. Actually, you’re completely wrong. That thought did not occur to me, and it is not an argument I like (except when we are literally talking about rounding errors, like a $10 million grant to study some scientific phenomenon that anti-government spending crusaders rail against while not understanding at all). > [@](#): > > That couple more thousand dollars was certainly one reason I supported it. > > Republicans can’t win with your side. You guys either accuse them of “voting against their economic interests” or being “pretty cold” when they vote for their economic interests. I said it’s pretty cold to generally like cuts to a program to make sure poor people can buy groceries while hailing that you just got a tax cut that amounts to maybe several weeks of take-home pay for those same poor people. The reason you can’t win with our side is that this kind of crap is disgusting. It’s like Wall Street bankers spitting on homeless people for kicks. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/122 "2018-09-18T23:39:38Z")
More like helpless people being robbed and then forced to pay admission to a show where the robber berates them for being so stupid that they got robbed. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2018, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/123 "2018-09-18T23:53:08Z")
And that the money that was stolen probably would have been wasted on things like a birthday cake for their kid (what kid NEEDS a cake?) instead of the cool stuff rich people will buy, like a Performance Dual Motor Tesla Model 3. The seats are white vegan leather! ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/124 "2018-09-19T00:00:13Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > No, we’re saying you don’t understand what your economic interests are. Sure, the government can cut your taxes this year. And you’ll think “Wow, this is great” and vote them back into office. > > But they’re paying for your tax cut by borrowing more money. So they gave you a two thousand dollar tax cut and put you three thousand dollars in debt. That’s not a good deal for you. It’s a better deal for me than giving three thousand dollars away to whatever pet project / program they’re running this year. I appreciate the concern (sort of), but I’m not very interested in what you imagine my economic interests are. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/125 "2018-09-19T00:14:54Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It’s a better deal for me than giving three thousand dollars away to whatever pet project / program they’re running this year. > > I appreciate the concern (sort of), but I’m not very interested in what you imagine my economic interests are. This country doesn’t revolve around you. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/126 "2018-09-19T00:35:33Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > And that the money that was stolen probably would have been wasted on things like a birthday cake for their kid (what kid NEEDS a cake?) instead of the cool stuff rich people will buy, like a Performance Dual Motor Tesla Model 3. The seats are white vegan leather! [the capitalist] turns the worker into a being with neither needs nor senses and turn the worker’s activity into a pure abstraction from all activity. Hence any luxury that the worker might enjoy is reprehensible, and anything that goes beyond the most abstract need – either in the form of passive enjoyment or active expression – appears to him as a luxury. – Karl Marx ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/127 "2018-09-19T00:59:32Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > This country doesn’t revolve around you. I’m well-aware. Thank you. I was one of ~130 million voters last fall. I chose to vote for my economic interests. Is that wrong, in your eyes? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/128 "2018-09-19T01:00:19Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It’s a better deal for me than giving three thousand dollars away to whatever pet project / program they’re running this year. It’s hard to discuss issues with you when you miss so much of what people are saying. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I appreciate the concern (sort of), but I’m not very interested in what you imagine my economic interests are. You told me what your economic interests are. You want to have more money. And I was explaining how going into debt doesn’t do that. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/129 "2018-09-19T01:17:31Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > … You told me what your economic interests are. You want to have more money. And I was explaining how going into debt doesn’t do that. Perhaps you’ve misunderstood. Whether I pay $9,000 or $11,500 in taxes this year, and next year, and for the next 8 or 9 years, has a real, direct impact on my bottom line. Whether we’re in debt $32 trillion in 10 years or only $30.1 trillion has a drastically-less direct impact on my bottom line. Do you understand now? - all numbers in this post are approximations, offered only as an example ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/130 "2018-09-19T01:21:53Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m well-aware. Thank you. I was one of ~130 million voters last fall. I chose to vote for my economic interests. Is that wrong, in your eyes? If offered a choice, children would generally attempt to subsist on cupcakes and soda. They are just eating in their own self-interest. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/131 "2018-09-19T01:22:37Z")
Let’s cut your taxes down to zero and we can be 200 trillion in debt in 10 years! Fuck it! Free hot tubs for the masses! I’m astounded that you spend so much time talking about policy when you clearly don’t give a shit about it. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/132 "2018-09-19T01:25:27Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > If offered a choice, children would generally attempt to subsist on cupcakes and soda. They are just eating in their own self-interest. So that’s a “yes” then? People should vote in favor of what _you_ (or Little Nemo) consider their economic interests to be, not what they do? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/133 "2018-09-19T01:37:23Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Perhaps you’ve misunderstood. Whether I pay $9,000 or $11,500 in taxes this year, and next year, and for the next 8 or 9 years, has a real, direct impact on my bottom line. Whether we’re in debt $32 trillion in 10 years or only $30.1 trillion has a drastically-less direct impact on my bottom line. Do you understand now? It makes a big difference if we matching tax cuts with spending cuts. If we keep spending the same amount of money and just borrow to make up for the tax cuts, then the debt grows. What do you think will happen to that debt? Will it just disappear? No, it will have to be paid off - with taxes. So what’s the point of getting ten thousand dollars this year if it just means you have to pay fifteen thousand dollars when the debt is due? You’ll just come out five thousand dollars behind. Let’s say the government builds a bridge. Which would you prefer them to do to pay for it; pay a million dollars for it or borrow a million dollars and then pay the million with two hundred thousand dollars of interest? Same bridge but you can pay either $1,000,000 or $1,200,000 for it. Remember it’s coming out of your taxes either way. Can you explain why you think going into debt won’t have an impact on your bottom line? Do you find that works when you buy a car or a house? That going into debt has no effect on your finances? Because that’s not how it works for most people. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/134 "2018-09-19T01:38:52Z")
If we pay more for the bridge it really pisses off the libtards ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/135 "2018-09-19T01:43:03Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It makes a big difference if we matching tax cuts with spending cuts. If we keep spending the same amount of money and just borrow to make up for the tax cuts, then the debt grows. Not that I agree, but if someone’s position was “So what about the debt? I get more money now and for the foreseeable future. Why should I care about the debt?” what’s the answer to that? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/136 "2018-09-19T01:44:27Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > … it will have to be paid off - with taxes. … when the debt is due… Remember it’s coming out of your taxes either way. … I think there’s pretty substantial evidence that it does not, in fact “have to be paid off” or that “when the debt is due” exists in any meaningful timeframe. If we had a BBA or something like that, you could plausible make these claims, but we do not. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > … Can you explain why you think going into debt won’t have an impact on your bottom line? … I didn’t claim it “won’t have an impact” on my bottom line. It may, but my claim is that that impact is likely smaller and more distant than the direct impact of saving $2,500/year for the next 10 years. I understand the arguments of why debt is bad and we shouldn’t go into debt. I’ve _made_ those arguments before. Nobody gives a shit. We’re over $20T in debt and on our way to $30T. Do you reasonably believe that there’s some point in your or my lifetime where we will have paid that amount off with taxes? ETA: kudos to **manson1972** , ninja’d me real good. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/137 "2018-09-19T02:01:36Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think there’s pretty substantial evidence that it does not, in fact “have to be paid off” or that “when the debt is due” exists in any meaningful timeframe. If we had a BBA or something like that, you could plausible make these claims, but we do not. What? Do you think the government isn’t paying off its debts? How do you think it’s able to keep borrowing more money? Of course we pay off debts. We have been all along and we will continue to do so in the foreseeable future. I don’t know who told you we don’t. And the timeframe we’re talking about is thirty years. Which I think qualifies as “meaningful”. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/138 "2018-09-19T02:05:27Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Not that I agree, but if someone’s position was “So what about the debt? I get more money now and for the foreseeable future. Why should I care about the debt?” what’s the answer to that? I’d say that person is very short sighted. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/139 "2018-09-19T02:07:21Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’d say that person is very short sighted. In what way? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/140 "2018-09-19T02:13:39Z")
The son of the Debt Clock billionaire says[tax the rich](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2018/09/17/i-support-higher-taxes-billionaire-behind-national-debt-clock-has-had-it-with-trump/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.686bc3dff6b1): > [@](#): > > Durst has a message for Congress: Tax the rich more. > > “I support higher taxes on people like me,” said Durst in an interview from his office in midtown Manhattan with sweeping views of the city. “I think America has more of a revenue problem than a spending problem.” > > When his father put up the National Debt Clock, total gross U.S. debt was just shy of $3 trillion — or about $12,000 a person. Today it is over $21 trillion, or about $65,000 a person. > > Economists typically focus on debt held by the public, which is currently about $16 trillion, because that is the amount the government truly owes creditors (the rest of the debt is money one government agency owes another). Debt held by the public will top $127,000 per household by the end of the year, according to JPMorgan. Personal debt per household will average about $126,000. But to some people, it may seem an abstraction. It is the government that owes the whole $16 trillion; averaging it out ‘per family’ is just a statistical game. Until it isn’t. Even\*\* HD\*\*'s own cite about that silly penny plan acknowledges that interest on the debt is on the road to $1 trillion per year. Now, maybe Juan doesn’t like military spending but Jane doesn’t like Medicare spending, Joe is against food stamps, and Jim wants to cut it all. Well, even with programs a person doesn’t like, funding them at least produces some public good (or product anyway, we hope it is good). Interest on the debt is nothing but the public supporting the lavish fortunes of mostly super wealthy bondholders. The public gets basically jack in that case. Some people take an attitude that “the government can’t do anything right.” They view any government action at all (until they’re flooded or a crime victim or something) as harmful, and so they may think “the bond guys get richer and the government doesn’t do any further harm” is the preferable outcome. Me, I think The Government Can’t Do Anything Right is one of those TV bromides that get push-marketed so hard, kind of like Washington Will Never Cut Spending.[Speaking of that:](https://www.barrons.com/articles/were-using-the-future-for-a-fiscal-dumping-ground-beware-trillion-dollar-deficits-1536975444) > [@](#): > > The last big fiscal success, the “Clinton surpluses” of 1998-2001, can be traced in part to the efforts of President George H.W. Bush. He was faced with a dangerous combination of a weakening economy and high interest rates. To convince the Federal Reserve to lower rates, he needed smaller budget deficits. A Democratic Congress wouldn’t agree to spending cuts without higher tax revenue. But Bush had famously promised, “Read my lips, no new taxes” during the 1988 Republican Convention. In the end, he reached a bipartisan deal that included about $2 in spending cuts for each $1 in added revenues, including from a tax hike on high earners. That deal helped cost Bush re-election in 1992. President Clinton followed up with a deficit-cutting budget in 1993. > > The deficit fell from 4.5% of gross domestic product in 1992 to near-breakeven five years later, before swinging to surpluses. The lesson of what might rightly be called the Bush-Clinton surpluses is that budget reform isn’t a job for narcissists or glory seekers, because the public outrage forms immediately, and the benefits don’t become clear until much later, by which time others will have arrived to help collect the high-fives. We have a contemporary precedent for how to reduce the debt. Let’s apply it as a template. > [@Slash1972](#): > > Not that I agree, but if someone’s position was “So what about the debt? I get more money now and for the foreseeable future. Why should I care about the debt?” what’s the answer to that? The answer is… progressive taxation. Make sure that guys like\*\* HD\*\* get to keep their $3000 tax cut. Allow the first significant chunk of income be exempt from the necessary Liberal Socialist Democrat Tax Hikes :eek: Obama proposed people earning $250,000 or less per year say in the same tax bracket. Since about a decade will have passed, make the limit $300,000 to throw a bone to the the Rs. Starting at (NOTE: NOT a tax on all the money someone makes if they exceed $300,000 a year, but only dollars _after_ $300,000 a year) $300,000, jack up the personal income tax rate. A rate of X at $300,000, Y for $750,000, Z for 1.25 million, Alpha for over $5 million. You get the idea: tax the rich. But don’t eat 'em, I am actually not malicious towards the rich, I just want a more Constitutionally congruent taxation scheme. That way, we stimulate the economy by putting more money into the hands of people most likely to spend it, and we extract a defensible extra amount of tax from the wealthiest, who profit from all of our collective labors to be so rich, trust me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407.md?page=8)