# Let's be forthright about the tax cuts **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 15, 2018, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407 "2018-09-15T21:08:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/141 "2018-09-19T02:22:32Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think there’s pretty substantial evidence that it does not, in fact “have to be paid off”… Spoken like a true Republican. Well, during a Republican administration, anyway. As soon as a Democrat is president it’ll become a crisis. Again. > [@](#): > > I understand the arguments of why debt is bad and we shouldn’t go into debt. I’ve _made_ those arguments before. Nobody gives a shit. We’re over $20T in debt and on our way to $30T. Do you reasonably believe that there’s some point in your or my lifetime where we will have paid that amount off with taxes? I don’t know if it’ll ever be paid down to 0, but I’d like to see us start heading in that direction. The lower the debt, the less we pay out in interest on that debt. It gets us some breathing room if there’s a downturn and revenue declines. And even if it’s not paid off in my lifetime, that’s okay; the sooner we start the easier it’ll be, and I expect the nation to outlive me. You say you want to cut taxes _and_ spending? Fine, spending first. You eat your vegetables before you get dessert. You mow the lawn before you go golfing. You do your homework before you watch TV. Do the work first, you can reward yourself after. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/142 "2018-09-19T03:36:57Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > What? Do you think the government isn’t paying off its debts? How do you think it’s able to keep borrowing more money? > > Of course we pay off debts. We have been all along and we will continue to do so in the foreseeable future. I don’t know who told you we don’t. > > And the timeframe we’re talking about is thirty years. Which I think qualifies as “meaningful”. The post I responded to was about “the debt”, not “debts”, and no, I don’t think we pay off “the debt”. Sure, we refinance individual “debts” from time to time, paying off the old creditors with money borrowed from new creditors, but the trend line is for more and more public debt. “The debt” keeps growing and growing, not getting smaller by paying it off with taxes. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/143 "2018-09-19T03:42:56Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > … The answer is… progressive taxation. Make sure that guys like\*\* HD\*\* get to keep their $3000 tax cut. Allow the first significant chunk of income be exempt from the necessary Liberal Socialist Democrat Tax Hikes :eek: Obama proposed people earning $250,000 or less per year say in the same tax bracket. Since about a decade will have passed, make the limit $300,000 to throw a bone to the the Rs. Starting at (NOTE: NOT a tax on all the money someone makes if they exceed $300,000 a year, but only dollars _after_ $300,000 a year) $300,000, jack up the personal income tax rate. A rate of X at $300,000, Y for $750,000, Z for 1.25 million, Alpha for over $5 million. You get the idea: tax the rich. But don’t eat 'em, I am actually not malicious towards the rich, I just want a more Constitutionally congruent taxation scheme. … How much do you think we could raise from such a plan? How much is the “defensible extra amount” you think you can extract from the rich? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/144 "2018-09-19T03:45:14Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > … I don’t know if it’ll ever be paid down to 0, but I’d like to see us start heading in that direction. The lower the debt, the less we pay out in interest on that debt. It gets us some breathing room if there’s a downturn and revenue declines. And even if it’s not paid off in my lifetime, that’s okay; the sooner we start the easier it’ll be, and I expect the nation to outlive me. > > You say you want to cut taxes _and_ spending? Fine, spending first. You eat your vegetables before you get dessert. You mow the lawn before you go golfing. You do your homework before you watch TV. Do the work first, you can reward yourself after. I’m fine with this. Let’s start slashing spending. The primary opponents to this plan have “D” after their name. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/145 "2018-09-19T03:55:39Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m fine with this. Let’s start slashing spending. The primary opponents to this plan have “D” after their name. No, they don’t. We’ve cited the figures in this thread which show that what you believe isn’t true. This is the reason why people think you’re a low information voter. People tell you facts and you just ignore them. I’m done. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/146 "2018-09-19T04:16:00Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m fine with this. Let’s start slashing spending. The primary opponents to this plan have “D” after their name. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > No, they don’t. We’ve cited the figures in this thread which show that what you believe isn’t true. This is the reason why people think you’re a low information voter. People tell you facts and you just ignore them. > > I’m done. Earlier **Ravenman** said this: > [@Ravenman](#): > > … it is a stone-cold undeniable fact that Republican orthodoxy fully embraces the reduction of these programs in order to lower spending. This is Paul Ryan’s entire reason for being in Congress. It has been a part of every Republican platform for decades. To deny that the overwhelming majority of Republican elected officials seek to reduce Medicare and Social Security is like denying that water is wet. … I think he’s right. You appear to disagree. Just where do you imagine you “cited figures” that contradict this? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/147 "2018-09-19T04:31:44Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > How much do you think we could raise from such a plan? How much is the “defensible extra amount” you think you can extract from the rich? $350 billion. Following the Bush-Clinton template, this would be accompanied by $550 billion in spending cuts. Including… Social Security and Medicare. This would balance the budget. Hold steady for 5 years and grow into surplus. It’s a super incentive ☺ ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/148 "2018-09-19T05:15:05Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > $350 billion. > > Following the Bush-Clinton template, this would be accompanied by $550 billion in spending cuts. Including… Social Security and Medicare. > > This would balance the budget. Hold steady for 5 years and grow into surplus. It’s a super incentive ☺ I’m intrigued by your plan and would like to hear more details. Has this been fleshed out in more detail anywhere, or is it just an idea in your own head? Do you think elected Dems could agree to $550B in spending cuts, including SS & Medicare? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/149 "2018-09-19T05:31:52Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m intrigued by your plan and would like to hear more details. Has this been fleshed out in more detail anywhere, or is it just an idea in your own head? > > Do you think elected Dems could agree to $550B in spending cuts, including SS & Medicare? On the one hand, it is my idea. OTOH it has been fleshed out by GHWB and Bill Clinton. I think Dems are willing to negotiate. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/150 "2018-09-19T11:29:12Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m fine with this. Let’s start slashing spending. The primary opponents to this plan have “D” after their name. Great, let’s get the D’s out of power then. We’ll vote Republicans into majorities in the house, senate, give them the executive and the judiciary. \ Look what happened, spending went up, taxes.went down, deficit boomed. Fucking D’s indeed. Low. Information. Voter. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/151 "2018-09-19T11:30:23Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > So that’s a “yes” then? People should vote in favor of what _you_ (or Little Nemo) consider their economic interests to be, not what they do? Let’s consider my economic interest in this question: I support spending to have a strong defense as well as: not hurting seniors by rationing their heath care or reducing the Social Security that keeps many off the streets; foreign aid programs that put the US in a leadership position in the world and address scourages like AIDS; I like roads and bridges that are smooth and also improving infrastructure with new technologies; and support a tax system that would generally pay for these things except during unusual times like war or recession. As far as I can tell, you want to be able to afford a fancy new grill or home theater system every year. The way I see it, you’re looking at what you can get out of the deal and I’m looking at what the country can get out of it. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/152 "2018-09-19T11:55:09Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > How much did you pay in state taxes last year? You know you can still claim the first $10,000, right? I would be surprised if you pay more than that. Now wait a cotton-picking minute! I thought with the standard deduction going way up to $20,000 for a married couple, that your itemized deductions would have to exceed $20,000 before they counted. Most folks aren’t going to be itemizing anymore as far as I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/153 "2018-09-19T13:12:30Z")
The problem with “cuts to Medicare” is that that conflicts with an important progressive goal: _The public should afford medicine and medical services to all_. Instead of cuts to “Medicare” we need cuts to _unnecessarily high medical costs_. This is the subject of another thread. If by “cuts to Medicare and SocSec” you mean means-testing, I say no. Means-testing just adds red-tape and increases opportunity for fraud. Give everyone, rich or poor, the benefits of SocSec and Medicare but make payroll taxes less regressive. And adopt my idea, which increases, in effect, minimum wage _but as a benefit rather than burden to employers of low-wage employers!_ Let the first $15,000 of income be exempt from payroll taxes (both employee and employer portions). The shortfall in revenue should be made up with a carbon tax. HTH. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/154 "2018-09-19T14:02:10Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > The problem with “cuts to Medicare” is that that conflicts with an important progressive goal: _The public should afford medicine and medical services to all_. Instead of cuts to “Medicare” we need cuts to _unnecessarily high medical costs_. This is the subject of another thread. > > If by “cuts to Medicare and SocSec” you mean means-testing, I say no. Means-testing just adds red-tape and increases opportunity for fraud. Give everyone, rich or poor, the benefits of SocSec and Medicare but make payroll taxes less regressive. > > And adopt my idea, which increases, in effect, minimum wage _but as a benefit rather than burden to employers of low-wage employers!_ Let the first $15,000 of income be exempt from payroll taxes (both employee and employer portions). The shortfall in revenue should be made up with a carbon tax. > > HTH. I don’t know, **Try2B** , does he sound “willing to negotiate” to you? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/155 "2018-09-19T14:05:41Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > … As far as I can tell, you want to be able to afford a fancy new grill or home theater system every year. > > The way I see it, you’re looking at what you can get out of the deal and I’m looking at what the country can get out of it. I’d like everyone to be able to afford a fancy new grill or home entertainment system. Sure, there’s an aspect of my support for tax cuts that’s motivated by what it does for me personally, but there’s also an aspect of it motivated by my thinking that it’s better for the country if more Americans get to keep more of what they earn. As hard as it is for your side to understand sometimes, there are decent people on both sides doing what they sincerely believe is best for the country. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/156 "2018-09-19T14:15:04Z")
The ignorance of economic principles by both politicians and the public is the single most frustrating aspect of observing politics for me. It utterly kills me that people think Trump is responsible for this economic boom. We’d have had one regardless of who was president. The stage has been setting since 2008. Trump’s policies are a disaster for the American economy. Tax cuts at full employment just cause inflation, a bubble in equities, and a bigger deficit. His trade policies are, honestly I can’t even bring myself to talk about them. And he’ll be out of office when the rent comes due and it will be blamed on the Democrat who’s in office. I think the stage is being set for a one term Democratic president whose supposed stewardship of recessing economy will keep the Republicans in power for the proceeding decade. God it’s so depressing. Fyi I’m a former Republican. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/157 "2018-09-19T15:39:26Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Which states have “regressive” income taxes? The ones with sales tax _instead of_ income taxes are considered regressive. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/158 "2018-09-19T15:44:41Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > The ones with sales tax _instead of_ income taxes are considered regressive. That’s not what **RTFirefly** said: > [@RTFirefly](#): > > … State income taxes are usually regressive too… ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/159 "2018-09-19T16:11:26Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’d like everyone to be able to afford a fancy new grill or home entertainment system. Sure, there’s an aspect of my support for tax cuts that’s motivated by what it does for me personally, but there’s also an aspect of it motivated by my thinking that it’s better for the country if more Americans get to keep more of what they earn. As hard as it is for your side to understand sometimes, there are decent people on both sides doing what they sincerely believe is best for the country. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. My side has a hard time understanding that the other side has good people? I posted a substantive response why I disagree with exactly what you’ve argued several times - $190 billion is debt is a good deal because you got $2,000 out of it - and you turn it into “why is your side so mean!” pout session. Look, I’m not the guy who starts a thread every ten days to stick it to the other side as large, to say nothing of the other insulting things you’ve said about liberals. I’ve said this before in many contexts, I bet you’d be a fun guy to watch a football game with or whatnot. That doesn’t mean I have to agree with your politics. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2018, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407/160 "2018-09-19T16:41:31Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > \ > > Wow HD, you make a very convincing rebuttal. > [@steronz](#): > > I’m astounded that you spend so much time talking about policy when you clearly don’t give a shit about it. > [@steronz](#): > > If we pay more for the bridge it really pisses off the libtards > [@steronz](#): > > Look what happened, spending went up, taxes.went down, deficit boomed. Fucking D’s indeed. > > Low. Information. Voter. Knock it off. If you can’t or won’t respond without personalizing your arguments, then don’t. [/moderating] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-be-forthright-about-the-tax-cuts/821407.md?page=9)