# Let's bring those jobs back... How? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2016, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448 "2016-11-19T18:20:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2016, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/181 "2016-11-25T10:09:10Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > Not germane (I really hope) to the Apple production: I’ve heard that old computer chips are melted down in open pots and the tiny bit of gold in them extracted. I don’t want _those_ jobs anywhere in Western Hemisphere. How do you feel about melting down slag in foundries to recover the different metals? Or about melting metals in small scale to alloy them and make jewelry? Both of those are tasks that can be done in multiple levels of safety. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2016, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/182 "2016-11-25T12:42:25Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > See a pattern? I see a pattern of more jobs in the U.S., more manufacturing in the U.S., higher real household income after taxes and transfers, and better standard of living. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2016, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/183 "2016-11-25T14:51:11Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > “Manufacturing in the US would also greatly increase Apple’s tax bill and this would be by far the largest cost to the company of reshoring this work.” > > [If Apple Brought iPhone Manufacturing To The US It Would Cost Them $4.2 billion](http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/09/25/if-apple-brought-iphone-manufacturing-to-the-us-it-would-cost-them-4-2-billion/#24c3dfcc8e29) I did click the link … and was reminded why clicking Forbes links is almost always a waste of time. [QUOTE=Tim “I have opinions about economics, finance and public policy” Worstall, Forbes Contributor] An interesting little point here, that extra cost, that $600 million, would not actually be an addition to US GDP… And yes, it is a detail of US GDP statistics that Apple’s foreign profits are counted as part of US GDP. [/QUOTE] Two points about _Tim “I have opinions about economics, finance and public policy” Worstall_’s little point: (1) It is false. Worstall might have guessed the correct answer if he knew that the D in GDP stands for Domestic. IPhones produced in China count towards _China_’s GDP. (This is the major difference between GDP calculations and the GNP oft-encountered in bygone days.) (2) If it were true, it would be irrelevant anyway. The subject under discussion, both in this thread and in Worstall’s own opinion piece, is _bringing manufacturing jobs to America_. Chinese labor doesn’t suddenly become American labor if the government collects its statistics incorrectly. Perhaps Worstall’s point is that if Apple pays $600 million in additional wages but makes $600 million less in profits, then Peter is being robbed to pay Paul; where Peter represents Apple’s stockholders, many but not all of whom are American. The alternative way out for America’s unemployed? _Buy stock in Apple,_ I guess. So, my advice to Forbes’ contributor _Tim “I have opinions about economics, finance and public policy” Worstall_ — crank up the _knowledge_; until then crank down the opinions. (And if one did want to treat money flows as a zero sum game, one would note that tax breaks to please Apple shareholders would eventually be paid by the working class as regressive taxes rise to compensate, but I think this is beyond the ken of Forbes contributors.) There is one silliness about Forbes’ articles which isn’t Worstall’s fault: Whenever an American company is mentioned there’s a clickable link and an indication of how that stock-price is doing today. :rolleyes: Not _wrong_, perhaps, but it certainly tells us a lot abut Forbes’ perspective. TL;DR: Just because there were Forbes magazines on newsstands before the Internet was invented doesn’t mean [Forbes.com](http://Forbes.com) is anything but another Fake News site. ---
**Author:** ![Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2016, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/184 "2016-11-25T15:00:46Z")
Under Obama, more people of color search for recyclables in my garbage cans. Are those the jobs you’re talking about? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2016, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/185 "2016-11-25T15:54:46Z")
Perhaps some day you will be ashamed of that post. We’re rooting for you. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2016, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/186 "2016-11-25T16:59:37Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > Under Obama, more people of color search for recyclables in my garbage cans. Are those the jobs you’re talking about? This is bordering on trolling. Dial it back. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2016, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/187 "2016-11-25T23:16:56Z")
> **[McDonald's: More touch screens and table service just the beginning of change](https://money.cnn.com/2016/11/17/news/mcdonalds-steve-easterbrook/)** > > McDonald's CEO Steve Easterbrook says the fast food giant is rolling out self-order kiosks, mobile pay options, an updated interior design, even table service. Yep, there’s obviously no correlation between government mandated wage floors and displacement of labor at the low margins. It’s not coincidental that the automation is being implemented with a priority to displacing those in higher minimum wage municipalities. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/188 "2016-11-26T00:13:48Z")
Automation will be cheaper no matter how low you make the wages. So, what’s your plan, what do we do with all these useless people? ---
**Author:** ![Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/189 "2016-11-26T01:11:36Z")
When liberals scratch their heads and ask why they lost the election, they are oblivious to what goes around them. I made an observation that was occurring as I was reading. You don’t believe someone was digging in my garbage can this morning? The economy isn’t nearly as good as the news constantly reports. I constantly get these warnings while others use profanity constantly and name calling of our duly elected President Donald J. Trump and anyone on the Right. A number of these posts appear to be from people on the verge of a mental breakdown. With much love and respect. PCP.😃 ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/190 "2016-11-26T01:37:04Z")
Automation is a double edged sword. It still takes someone to run the machine and the labor cost per unit becomes less relevant. This type of production might suggest cutting hours to allow for more employees. If labor per unit cost is small enough it might need meet too much resistance. Stick with the minimum wage for entry level type part time jobs but increase the wages for industrial or semi skilled type jobs. I have believed for a long time that America could increase tourism to a level not thought possible before through some special programs. They might take some federal funding too develop but I think they would pay off in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/191 "2016-11-26T02:16:15Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Automation will be cheaper no matter how low you make the wages. Capex? Opex? Have you ever performed a cba on labor vs automation? Because that is a very strange claim to make. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/192 "2016-11-26T02:38:08Z")
What that appears to be is a statement of expertise accompanied by an accusation of ignorance, both substantiated by…what? ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/193 "2016-11-26T02:50:53Z")
my question always has been this : What if a privately owned company of apples stature gets these ultimatums and decides "ill piss in everyones corn flakes and just leave the country or shut down entirely leaving hundreds if not thousands jobless across the county and possibly the world ? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/194 "2016-11-26T03:14:08Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > What that appears to be is a statement of expertise accompanied by an accusation of ignorance, both substantiated by…what? You’re making factual claims in GD that fly in the face of reason. So did you run a simple analysis to reach your conclusion? Guess? Something else? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/195 "2016-11-26T03:28:14Z")
Ultimately labor is valueless in a robot-centric economy. So eventually we either A) Leave a large fraction of the US populace out of the US economy, much as tribal Africans and Native Americans in Chiapas in Mexico are presently left out of the world economy OR B) We decouple a living income from any/all labor. Actually, there is a third option: remove all rights of citizenship from non-self-sufficiently-wealthy Americans and simply exterminate them as vermin. We (the US) \*are \*going to get to a place where it’s A, B, or C; pick one. We’re in the early stages now and the people who will live through that transition are already born. It behooves us as a society to think about how to handle this. Bickering about whether or not minimum wages help or hurt this worker, that worker, or all or some workers is pennies around the edge of the real problem. Which loops back to a point I make now and again: Does our society exist to support our economy, or does our economy exist to support our society? If the reason American citizens exist is to labor for their betters, then yes, we ought to exploit and abuse them insofar as possible. If however, the reason the US economy exists is to support all American citizens in fulfilling their needs and wants insofar as possible, then once we have a robot-centric post-scarcity economy we want to fulfill everyone, not just a tiny fraction of 1%. So how do we do that? Not through incremental trivial changes driven by blinkered ideologically-driven 1850s-era thinking. The Strange New World is approaching rapidly. Will we be ready? I see negligible evidence for it. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/196 "2016-11-26T06:19:30Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What are you talking about? Businesses move for tax cuts all the time. Are you saying businesses can’t be enticed to the US with tax cuts? We just a glass manufacturer from China move to my area. Jesus. Seriously, read a little closer. I said Apple, given a tax cut, wouldn’t pass the savings on to YOU. I didn’t say they might not relocate an assembly plant. But if the market price for a iPhone is $600, why the hell would they charge less? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/197 "2016-11-26T06:39:21Z")
Because they are Americans, by gum! That’s why whenever America gets into a war, American companies stand tall, and supply our heroes at cost! And hang profit! ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/198 "2016-11-26T09:01:06Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Automation will be cheaper no matter how low you make the wages. So, what’s your plan, what do we do with all these useless people? I’ve mentioned it above. It includes things such as a basic income, no minimum wage, and an expanded need based safety net. This should serve well until strong AI and robots take over and we either live in a robotic socialist paradise or are exterminated. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/199 "2016-11-26T09:06:55Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Jesus. Seriously, read a little closer. I said Apple, given a tax cut, wouldn’t pass the savings on to YOU. I didn’t say they might not relocate an assembly plant. > > But if the market price for a iPhone is $600, why the hell would they charge less? Again, luxury goods that have a marquee brand name might not pass any savings. However, competitive markets would. Really, do potatoes benefit from brand loyalty? And since money is fungible saving money on needed commodities such as milk, gas, grains, etc. does improve quality of life. I know when gas dropped to ~$1.99/gal from over $4 in my neck of the woods the savings were noticeable. That translates into a lot of Hearthstone arenas. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/200 "2016-11-26T16:30:59Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Again, luxury goods that have a marquee brand name might not pass any savings. However, competitive markets would. Really, do potatoes benefit from brand loyalty? And since money is fungible saving money on needed commodities such as milk, gas, grains, etc. does improve quality of life. I know when gas dropped to ~$1.99/gal from over $4 in my neck of the woods the savings were noticeable. That translates into a lot of Hearthstone arenas. There’s a reason my local grocer stocks both Ore-Ida and Shur-Fine in the freezer case–Ore-Ida costs more, and has a lot more shelf space and a lot higher sales. While shoppers are probably more likely to go for generic potatoes than generic phones if the price differential gets too great, brand-name groceries are widely sold precisely BECAUSE people have brand loyalty. How much difference is there, really, between Hiland milk and the store brand? Probably not much, but Hiland commands a higher price. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448.md?page=11)