# Let's bring those jobs back... How? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2016, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448 "2016-11-19T18:20:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/201 "2016-11-26T19:07:07Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > There’s a reason my local grocer stocks both Ore-Ida and Shur-Fine in the freezer case–Ore-Ida costs more, and has a lot more shelf space and a lot higher sales. > > While shoppers are probably more likely to go for generic potatoes than generic phones if the price differential gets too great, brand-name groceries are widely sold precisely BECAUSE people have brand loyalty. How much difference is there, really, between Hiland milk and the store brand? Probably not much, but Hiland commands a higher price. That’s great. Who supplies your fresh radishes? But that’s besides the point. Are you of the mind that goods and services don’t compete on price? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2016, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/202 "2016-11-26T19:25:16Z")
Things compete on all sorts of attributes. Price is just one. Albeit for some buyers and some goods it’s the biggest one. At the same time, costs do \*not \*set prices. Costs set a _floor_ on a seller’s long-term average price. Any seller more complex than a solo hotdog pushcart also has the ability for product X sold in area Y via channel Z to subsidize product A sold in area B via Channel C. The only thing that matters is that over the long-term, the sum of all sales must exceed the sum of all costs, both direct and indirect. As we see with many failing big businesses, “long-term” can be decades of unprofitable operations. Be very wary of applying the “lessons” of the first chapter of a high school economics text to the real world unaltered. There are lots of spherical cows in elementary economics texts that are notably absent in the real world. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/203 "2016-11-27T01:03:25Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Things compete on all sorts of attributes. Price is just one. Albeit for some buyers and some goods it’s the biggest one. > > At the same time, costs do \*not \*set prices. Costs set a _floor_ on a seller’s long-term average price. > > Any seller more complex than a solo hotdog pushcart also has the ability for product X sold in area Y via channel Z to subsidize product A sold in area B via Channel C. The only thing that matters is that over the long-term, the sum of all sales must exceed the sum of all costs, both direct and indirect. As we see with many failing big businesses, “long-term” can be decades of unprofitable operations. > > Be very wary of applying the “lessons” of the first chapter of a high school economics text to the real world unaltered. There are lots of spherical cows in elementary economics texts that are notably absent in the real world. Yeah. I know that. But if you are competing on price with commodity goods or goods that have very good substitutes then your ability to do so profitably does depend on costs of inputs. Why in the hell you think every successful business is constantly looking to cut operating costs? More profit. Yet in competitive markers prices obviously drop, especially in real dollar terms. The point being, a wage floor does impact prices negatively. A wage floor does speed up automation. Wage floors also encourage illegal labor and offshoring. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/204 "2016-11-27T01:06:02Z")
So, once again, what is the plan for all those useless people? Are we offered fantasies of full employment in the shining citadel on the hill? Well, OK, when? Oh, and yes, of course, _how_? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/205 "2016-11-27T03:21:24Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So, once again, what is the plan for all those useless people? Are we offered fantasies of full employment in the shining citadel on the hill? Well, OK, when? Oh, and yes, of course, _how_? What plan have you offered? I haven’t seen much productive posting in this thread. You want to raise minimum wage to $30/hr and put your head in the sand with regards to illegal immigration, offshoring, and robotics? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/206 "2016-11-27T04:46:04Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So, once again, what is the plan for all those useless people? Are we offered fantasies of full employment in the shining citadel on the hill? Well, OK, when? Oh, and yes, of course, _how_? It’s always just a matter of time before expressions like “useless people” come out, betraying a certain elitism. While there are some people with substance abuse or mental health issues, that are essentially unemployable until they resolve such issues, such people constitute a minority. The rest of the unemployed could be trained into another area, or just helped to find work in their existing area. And it’s important to remind everyone at this point that unemployment is not currently high in the US. It’s under 5% now, about as low as it ever dips. The idea of vast numbers of unemployed is a projection about the future, not reality now. That’s not to say all is good: we’ve seen salary stagnation for example. But the point is, what most of the “useless people” are doing right now, is working. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2016, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/207 "2016-11-27T04:59:25Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > It’s always just a matter of time before expressions like “useless people” come out, betraying a certain elitism… Until further evidence is offered, I’m chalking this up to deliberate misunderstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Salvor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Salvor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salvor)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/208 "2016-11-28T03:58:31Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Except union membership in the USA was consistently around 30% from the 20s to the 60s, the USA grew into the largest industrialised nation in the history f the world, and the American Dream of house ownership and quality of life evolved. > > So there is that. Different time, especially after WWII, the industrial base of Europe was devastated while the US was left to turn that productive power away from machines of war and towards steel and other industries. We do not live in that world anymore where we are the biggest manufacturing power left standing with their capacities in tact. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/209 "2016-11-28T04:28:25Z")
True enough, we won WWII when everybody else lost. And relatively unscathed, with the industrial capacity of a resource-rich nation on full war capacity makes an unbeatable recipe for economic success. Well, that and our free-market entrepreneurial skills. (Actually, I was given to understand that last part is pretty much all of it.) ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/210 "2016-11-28T15:39:28Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > No. That’s a ridiculous and impossible question to answer. Admitting that your proposal is ridiculous and impossible is the first step on the road to wisdom. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/211 "2016-11-28T16:06:34Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So, once again, what is the plan for all those useless people? Are we offered fantasies of full employment in the shining citadel on the hill? Well, OK, when? Oh, and yes, of course, _how_? We need only look to Japan for answers. They have low immigration and a declining population. Instead of importing workers, retirees are being replaced by robots. As an added bonus, people are abandoning towns and giving them back to nature. This is true environmentalism. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2016, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/212 "2016-11-28T16:16:50Z")
> [@DWMarch](#): > > No wage floor? That’s nuts. That completely destroys the notion of the American Dream. In conjunction with the “basic income” part of the plan, it works – people who are guaranteed enough income to keep food on the table and a roof overhead might be willing to do some low-paid work to get pin money for extras, but won’t put up with anything too onerous (basically, it’d be the equivalent of paying people a few bucks to do chores for you, not a major element of the economy). The catch, obviously, is that the people in power are unlikely to accept the notion of “no wage floor” and “basic income” as inseparable components of a package deal. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2016, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/213 "2016-11-29T05:01:46Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Admitting that your proposal is ridiculous and impossible is the first step on the road to wisdom. 🙂 My proposal recognizes more of the structural issues than any other proposal in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/214 "2016-11-30T02:23:29Z")
Carrier says it has deal with Trump to keep jobs in Indiana [https://www.yahoo.com/news/carrier-says-deal-trump-keep-jobs-indiana-012011271--finance.html](https://www.yahoo.com/news/carrier-says-deal-trump-keep-jobs-indiana-012011271--finance.html) Hurrah! This is how you do it! Not even in office and doing more than Obama ever did.:D:D:D A victory for working class America!:p:p:p ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/215 "2016-11-30T02:26:52Z")
It’s hard to tell if you’re utterly confused by the fake news and are serious, or are well equipped with real facts and are making a joke. Perhaps you’d care to clarify? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/216 "2016-11-30T02:53:01Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > Carrier says it has deal with Trump to keep jobs in Indiana > > [https://www.yahoo.com/news/carrier-says-deal-trump-keep-jobs-indiana-012011271--finance.html](https://www.yahoo.com/news/carrier-says-deal-trump-keep-jobs-indiana-012011271--finance.html) > > Hurrah! This is how you do it! Not even in office and doing more than Obama ever did.:D:D:D > > A victory for working class America!:p:p:p [CNNMoney](http://money.cnn.com/2016/11/29/news/economy/trump-carrier-deal/) > [@](#): > > The company, which is owned by defense contractor United Technologies, announced in February that it would close two Indiana plants – a Carrier plant in Indianapolis that employs 1,400 workers and a United Technologies Electronic Controls plant in nearby Huntington, Indiana, that employs 700. > > Carrier did not elaborate on the terms of the deal, but it is on the record, as are most other major multinational businesses, as wanting to see a cut in corporate tax rates, especially as it applies to cash earned overseas. > > The fate of the more than 400 remaining jobs in Indianapolis was not immediately clear. Nor was it clear whether the 700 jobs at the Huntington plan would be saved. > [@](#): > > The company planned to send that work to Mexico starting next year, a move that would have saved it $65 million a year in labor costs, according to the union that represents the workers. > > **United Technologies is a leading defense contractor that benefits from billions of dollars in federal spending, so it needs to maintain good relations with the incoming Trump administration.** > > United Technologies collects about $5.6 billion in annual revenue from U.S. government contracts, according to company filings, which is equal to about 10% of its overall revenue. The government also pays for nearly $1.5 billion of the company’s annual research and development spending. I’ll bet the remaining workers get _fucked_. So a company that has revenue of 56 billion needs to save 65 million that badly? Something isn’t right. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/217 "2016-11-30T21:45:39Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > Carrier says it has deal with Trump to keep jobs in Indiana > > [https://www.yahoo.com/news/carrier-says-deal-trump-keep-jobs-indiana-012011271--finance.html](https://www.yahoo.com/news/carrier-says-deal-trump-keep-jobs-indiana-012011271--finance.html) > > Hurrah! This is how you do it! Not even in office and doing more than Obama ever did.:D:D:D > > A victory for working class America!:p:p:p What it possibly means is that the Federal government is putting its fingers into even more of the economy. ---
**Author:** ![Flying\_Rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/858c86/32.png) [@Flying\_Rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flying_Rabbit)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/218 "2016-12-01T13:10:12Z")
I imagine if the Republicans have their way, those people who won’t move will lose all social programs including welfare, food stamps, medicare, obamacare, access to public schools. So they will be grateful to get a job picking tomatoes in a field in 100 degree summer heat. I think that’s the master plan. So, the people who think coal mining jobs, or the steel mill jobs are coming back to revive their small towns, better move. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/219 "2016-12-01T13:43:42Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > Carrier says it has deal with Trump to keep jobs in Indiana > > [https://www.yahoo.com/news/carrier-says-deal-trump-keep-jobs-indiana-012011271--finance.html](https://www.yahoo.com/news/carrier-says-deal-trump-keep-jobs-indiana-012011271--finance.html) > > Hurrah! This is how you do it! Not even in office and doing more than Obama ever did.:D:D:D > > A victory for working class America!:p:p:p Ha. Pence opened up the Indiana treasury and threw money at Carrier. Obama saved the auto industry. TinyHands isn’t fit to shine Obama’s shoes. ---
**Author:** ![Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/220 "2016-12-01T13:51:37Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > TinyHands isn’t fit to shine Obama’s shoes. That’s an interesting way to describe President Trump. Thank you for sharing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448.md?page=12)