# Let's bring those jobs back... How? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2016, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448 "2016-11-19T18:20:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/221 "2016-12-01T14:04:31Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > That’s an interesting way to describe President Trump. Thank you for sharing. There is no such person that you named. ---
**Author:** ![CatandMouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c89c15/32.png) [@CatandMouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CatandMouse)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/222 "2016-12-01T15:49:48Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > Carrier says it has deal with Trump to keep jobs in Indiana > > [https://www.yahoo.com/news/carrier-says-deal-trump-keep-jobs-indiana-012011271--finance.html](https://www.yahoo.com/news/carrier-says-deal-trump-keep-jobs-indiana-012011271--finance.html) > > Hurrah! This is how you do it! Not even in office and doing more than Obama ever did.:D:D:D > > A victory for working class America!:p:p:p Good grief, even with those incentives (at the public’s expense) they’re still sending approx 1,100 of those jobs to Mexico. Not to mention the fact that this does not address the loss of manufacturing jobs to technological change, which will continue. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/223 "2016-12-01T16:10:06Z")
> [@CatandMouse](#): > > Good grief, even with those incentives (at the public’s expense) they’re still sending approx 1,100 of those jobs to Mexico. Not to mention the fact that this does not address the loss of manufacturing jobs to technological change, which will continue. It would be interesting to see a breakdown to see, with the incentives that were given to keep a few jobs here, if it would have ended up costing the taxpayers less to just give the money to the workers directly. It would not be difficult for a deal like that to be not only paying the employees directly out of the taxpayer’s pockets, but for carrier to take a bit off the top for their troubles as well. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/224 "2016-12-01T17:39:13Z")
Pretty every sweatheart deal involving tax breaks to attract jobs to town X instead of town Y involve hundreds of thousands of foregone dollars in tax revenue per low-end job “created” / saved. I put created in quotes because in most cases the factory will be built someplace and the jobs will be created. The company is simply shaking down various towns and auctioning the jobs to the highest bidder. Who, as in most auctions, will end up paying 2 to 10x what the item is worth in a misbegotten frenzy to “win” the competition. By losing bigger than the second place bidder. The original Federal minimum wage law was created precisely to stop this sort of race to the bottom competitions between the states. Which was threatening to ensure the Depression would never end for most Americans. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/225 "2016-12-01T17:43:18Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > My proposal recognizes more of the structural issues than any other proposal in this thread. I’ve been meaning to get back to this, but it’s been pretty busy around here, and I haven’t been able to give it the time I would like to. Still crazy busy, and will be till at least the end of the year, but I’ll try to make a bit of time, as this is an important topic to me. I would agree that your proposal is definitely a good one. The minimum basic income idea does take care of quite a bit of issues of poverty. (How do you get rid of the poor? Give them money.) It has been proposed by others though, and always shot down as being impractical for either economic or political reasons, or both. I see how it can work economically, with some pretty major shifts in the way our economy works, but I am not sure of the political environment that would be required to implement such a tremendous change in policy. What kind of path do you see ahead of us in implementing your proposals? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/226 "2016-12-01T17:53:13Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > It would be interesting to see a breakdown to see, with the incentives that were given to keep a few jobs here, if it would have ended up costing the taxpayers less to just give the money to the workers directly. It would not be difficult for a deal like that to be not only paying the employees directly out of the taxpayer’s pockets, but for carrier to take a bit off the top for their troubles as well. Well if you assume 3 years before the next round of layoffs and $65M being the apparently savings per year the company expected to get out of removing 1000 employees the cost becomes $195,000 per employee. Median wage in Indiana is $50k. So if the state had give each laid off employee $50,000 in support and $50,000 in training it could have saved $95 million dollars over 3 years. Assuming the above assumptions are reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2016, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/227 "2016-12-02T17:22:05Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > My proposal recognizes more of the structural issues than any other proposal in this thread. > [@Grey](#): > > Well if you assume 3 years before the next round of layoffs and $65M being the apparently savings per year the company expected to get out of removing 1000 employees the cost becomes $195,000 per employee. > > Median wage in Indiana is $50k. > > So if the state had give each laid off employee $50,000 in support and $50,000 in training it could have saved $95 million dollars over 3 years. Assuming the above assumptions are reasonable. A thought on that, then. We use octopus’s guaranteed income proposal, which I personally find to be a good idea, and we pay for it by completely eliminating all corporate welfare. All tax breaks, all incentives, and all the subsidies. They shouldn’t need them anymore. With guaranteed income, a minimum wage is no longer required, with healthcare, health care benefits won’t be on the company’s dime, retirement is not as necessary, as the govt will be providing a safety net there as well. So, the companies are still getting the benefit of the assistance given to their employees, but at least the employees get the benefits to pass on to their employer, rather than giving benefits to the employer, and watching as they keep those for themselves, without passing them onto either employee or consumer. ---
**Author:** ![Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/228 "2016-12-03T03:06:28Z")
Thank you President Trump!!! " Shell is going ahead with a $6 billion petrochemical plant on the site of an old zinc smelter on the Ohio River in hard-hit Appalachia. The plant, known as Shell Appalachia, will generate 6,000 construction jobs for several years, plus 600 full-time plant jobs, plus thousands more jobs indirectly for companies that make plastics, steel pipe, sound proofing for gas compressors, pickup trucks, housing etc., etc. A Thai company is eyeing a second giant ethylene plant nearby in eastern Ohio. **Guess who will get credit for lifting the fortunes of a region presidents have been promising to help since Kennedy?** Mr. Obama was too blinded by his shibboleths, his own brand of political correctness, to let good things happen in a way that would let him take credit for them." > **[Trump’s Charm of Not Being Obama](https://www.wsj.com/articles/trumps-charm-of-not-being-obama-1480723697)** > > Business World columnist Holman W. Jenkins, Jr., writes that new White House won’t fail to embrace the jobs that fracking and pipelines can bring. Highlighted by me. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/229 "2016-12-03T04:36:31Z")
Shell took an option on that former zinc smelting plant in May of 2012. So why would you give Trump all the credit for a plant that’s been in development for over half of Obama’s time in office? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/230 "2016-12-03T12:18:59Z")
And of course this is a result of excess ethane from the shale book, which has even earlier roots. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/231 "2016-12-03T14:15:15Z")
We can talk about policies all we want. Unless we talk about dealing with climate change – like really – none of the proposals by any president will matter. We’re approaching a situation in which climate and ecology will change so rapidly that humanity will have little time to react, and by the time it does react, the dynamics to which it reacts initially will have already shifted again. Climate catastrophes have eliminated civilizations on a regional scale in the past, but we’re about to experience catastrophe on a much larger scale. Maybe deal with that first. ---
**Author:** ![Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pearl_Clutching_Provocateur)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/232 "2016-12-03T14:52:02Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Shell took an option on that former zinc smelting plant in May of 2012. So why would you give Trump all the credit for a plant that’s been in development for over half of Obama’s time in office? Trump gets to credit the same way Obama takes credit for the low gas prices. It takes a special type of Chutzpah, Occupy Democrat’s level, to produce a meme claiming Obama should take credit when he been has working to make oil and gas scarce resources. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/233 "2016-12-03T15:06:33Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > Trump gets to credit the same way Obama takes credit for the low gas prices. It takes a special type of Chutzpah, Occupy Democrat’s level, to produce a meme claiming Obama should take credit when he been has working to make oil and gas scarce resources. While I will agree that the low gas prices are due technological innovation and not due to any policy taken by the US government, I still have to ask how, exactly, did Obama work to make oil and gas scarce resources? From my perspective he has always been friendly to the petroleum industry. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/234 "2016-12-03T15:31:16Z")
> [@Pearl\_Clutching\_Provocateur](#): > > Carrier says it has deal with Trump to keep jobs in Indiana > > [https://www.yahoo.com/news/carrier-says-deal-trump-keep-jobs-indiana-012011271--finance.html](https://www.yahoo.com/news/carrier-says-deal-trump-keep-jobs-indiana-012011271--finance.html) > > Hurrah! This is how you do it! Not even in office and doing more than Obama ever did.:D:D:D > > A victory for working class America!:p:p:p I assume from all the emoji’s you’re making a joke. But Trump would need to sign a Carrier deal every week for the next 30 years to save the same number of jobs Obama saved with the auto industry bailout (about 1.5 million). > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Shell took an option on that former zinc smelting plant in May of 2012. So why would you give Trump all the credit for a plant that’s been in development for over half of Obama’s time in office? I think he/she(?) was being sarcastic? Because otherwise this is an example of dumb-as-shit partisan magical thinking. People seeing what they want to see. As you indicated, petro plants are not designed and built overnight and Trump isn’t even in office yet. Much in the same way that Obama gets the blame for the Republicans crashing the economy because he couldn’t turn it into a conservative utopia fast enough. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/235 "2016-12-03T17:06:30Z")
We already know how he will bring the jobs back, clean coal and monorails! A solid foundation of fantasy for an administration of unicorns. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2016, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/236 "2016-12-04T03:47:59Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > We already know how he will bring the jobs back, clean coal and monorails! A solid foundation of fantasy for an administration of unicorns. Well he can get the monorails from Obama’s billion dollar a year rail fantasy. And he can get the unicorns from Solyndra’s $535 million dollar loan from Obama. We should at least get something from it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2016, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/237 "2016-12-04T03:49:20Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > We already know how he will bring the jobs back, clean coal and monorails! A solid foundation of fantasy for an administration of unicorns. Well he can get the monorails from Obama’s billion dollar a year rail fantasy. And he can get the unicorns from Solyndra’s $535 million dollar loan from Obama. We should at least get something from it since all the employees lost their job. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/238 "2016-12-05T12:37:37Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Well he can get the monorails from Obama’s billion dollar a year rail fantasy. It wouldn’t have had to remain a fantasy if most Congressional Republicans hadn’t firmly believed that [actually giving a rat’s ass about American infrastructure or working-class jobs was unimportant compared to the overriding Republican goal of thwarting anything that Obama supported](http://time.com/83073/barack-obama-transportation-republicans/): > [@](#): > > [In April 2014] the Administration unveiled a four-year, $300-billion transportation bill. It included a 22% increase in highway funding, a 70% increase in transit funding, and a provision allowing states to put tolls on interstates. At a time when one in nine U.S. bridges are rated “structurally deficient,” and nearly half the public lacks access to public transit, it’s a pretty ambitious piece of legislation. […] > > […] **no matter how much Republicans say they care about infrastructure, they’re not going to accept any infrastructure proposals that come from President Barack Obama.** They opposed his $50 billion “roads, rails and runways” proposal in 2010, and then again when it was expanded and incorporated into his American Jobs Act in 2011. They’ve blocked Obama’s plans for an infrastructure bank and a national high-speed rail network. They’ve also blocked Obama’s proposals for corporate tax reform, which is relevant, because the new GROW AMERICA Act depends on tax reform for much of its financing. […] > > **Republicans say nice things about infrastructure but haven’t shown any interest in paying for it.** As a result, the nation has failed to take advantage of historically low interest rates to invest more in our overcrowded airports, outdated railways and flimsy bridges. […] > > Infrastructure advocates often complain that Obama hasn’t used his bully pulpit enough to push for an investment program. But he barnstormed the country for the American Jobs Act. He has talked about rebuilding America in every State of the Union address. **His problem is not a lack of will or poor messaging. His problem is that he doesn’t have the votes. Republicans control the House, and they can block legislation in the Senate. If they were willing to pass an Obama infrastructure bill, then an Obama infrastructure bill might make news.** Emphasis added. It takes a special kind of chutzpah for conservatives to mulishly resist and reject all of Obama’s proposed initiatives and then sneer at Obama for not getting his initiatives accomplished. Whaddya want to bet that within a couple years they’ll be criticizing Obama for not having filled the current Supreme Court vacancy, too? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/239 "2016-12-05T13:24:01Z")
The most amazing thing will be seeing them claim they can’t get anything done in the next 2-4-?? years with almost total control of the national and most states’ governments. Who / what will be the excuse then? That Obama, despite being stymied at every turn, has single-handedly totally destroyed the future of the US so badly that even the mighty Rs can’t put Humpty back together again? Yeah, right. But it’ll sell to the rubes. For a few years. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448/240 "2016-12-05T13:51:59Z")
From interviews made with Trump or TeaParty supporters who may not do that well under their proposals, ISTM they are willing to stoically accept that things may continue to go badly for them, just as long as it’s not because the “bad” (read: liberal) policies are in place. If with Trump or Ryan or Pence in place life still sucks then it’s just the Way of the World and/or the Lord’s will and we must bear with it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bring-those-jobs-back-how/772448.md?page=13)