# Let's bury the "Taxation is theft" meme once and for all **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 1, 2009, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434 "2009-09-01T02:35:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/21 "2009-09-01T09:31:24Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Well, they would not specify _taxation_ as theft, but [property in general](http://thinkexist.com/quotation/property_is/156723.html). Hmmmm. > [@](#): > > Pierre-Joseph Proudhon quotes (French Politician and Journalist,\*\* 1809-1865\*\*) Which probably explains why he isn’t posting here, eh? 🙂 Like I said; you just don’t normally run into left wingers who push the taxes-are-theft idea. On the other hand, I’ve seen right wingers talk like that right here on the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/22 "2009-09-01T09:52:11Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Well, they would not specify _taxation_ as theft, but [property in general](http://thinkexist.com/quotation/property_is/156723.html). Why do lefties only drink herbal tea? Because all proper tea is theft! ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/23 "2009-09-01T10:24:54Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Well guess what, liberals have felt that same feeling, knowing that parts of their paychecks are going towards funding evil, immoral, unprovoked wars of aggression that cause the deaths of thousands of innocents. Why are you acting like the atrocities committed by fiscally liberal, big government Republicans is a point in favour of your position? You’re both on the same side of this argument, even if they’re too stupid to realise it. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/24 "2009-09-01T11:07:16Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Why are you acting like the atrocities committed by fiscally liberal, big government Republicans is a point in favour of your position? You’re both on the same side of this argument, even if they’re too stupid to realise it. Perhaps he would discuss the atrocities committed by the libertarian political leaders, if any existed. Until then, it seems merited to discuss the leaders for whom “taxation is theft” types generally vote: Republicans. Your critique, an echo of a common one around here, is correct from some kind of abstract two-dimensional chart of political philosophy. But I have to tell you that it reads more like a “don’t blame me, I didn’t vote” bumper sticker. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/25 "2009-09-01T11:41:10Z")
I don’t consider taxation “theft.” I do, however, believe it’s the wisest social and governmental policy to start from the position that we should have no taxes at all, and then make a strong case for every exception, every program that seeks to use tax dollars to operate. If I could draw an analogy to buying a car, we shouldn’t start from the sticker price and negotiate downwards; we should start from the dealer’s true cost and negotiate upwards. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/26 "2009-09-01T13:51:24Z")
The real issue is not so much whether taxes are theft but whether avoiding (legally or illegally) paying taxes is theft, or immoral. I’m kind of ambivalent about this. I’m down with the general idea that everyone needs to contribute to the common good, but the question is the amount. Just because some democratically elected officials decided that the amount I’m supposed to share is X, does this mean I have a moral obligation to share that amount? Suppose I decide on my own that the proper amount of sharing is X minus Y? Possibly a discussion that deserves its own thread. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/27 "2009-09-01T14:21:49Z")
Suppose _everybody_ decides that the proper amount of sharing is X minus Y? Either the actions of a democratically elected government are legitimate, or they aren’t. Unless their conduct is criminal, you simply have to take the good with the bad. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/28 "2009-09-01T14:24:07Z")
As a practical matter you probably have to, because otherwise you risk going to jail. But that doesn’t mean you’re morally required to. Again, I’m not saying that someone who works for the tax collector is an extortionist. From the perspective of the government, that’s the only way to operate. But I’m discussing it from the perspective of the taxpayer. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/29 "2009-09-01T14:29:36Z")
> [@really not all that bright](#): > > you simply have to take the good with the bad. You take the good You take the bad You take them both And there you have… _(HA HA!! Try getting that out of your head for the next hour!!)_ ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/30 "2009-09-01T14:30:39Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > But that doesn’t mean you’re morally required to. Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/31 "2009-09-01T14:32:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If I could draw an analogy to buying a car, we shouldn’t start from the sticker price and negotiate downwards; we should start from the dealer’s true cost and negotiate upwards. If I may draw another analogy: “I need this car RIGHT NOW, and it doesn’t matter what it costs. It’s a matter of _national security_!” _[Barely audible over screeching tires]_“Bill it to my grandkids!” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/32 "2009-09-01T14:33:04Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > As a practical matter you probably have to, because otherwise you risk going to jail. But that doesn’t mean you’re morally required to. Well, this brings us back to that GQ question from the other day about why Canada has the right to tell the OP (some noob) what to do - and the answer is because if it didn’t, people with guns would be telling him what to do. You don’t have a moral imperative to pay taxes at all; if you like, you can opt out of your current system and go live somewhere else. However, if you choose to remain where you are, you are accepting the legitimacy of whatever governments reign there, and therefore you have a moral imperative to pay taxes. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/33 "2009-09-01T14:41:42Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Well, this brings us back to that GQ question from the other day about why Canada has the right to tell the OP (some noob) what to do - and the answer is because if it didn’t, people with guns would be telling him what to do. Er, people with guns are already telling him what to do. If he doesn’t obey the law he’ll soon see them, they’re called the police, and, if he really wants to get stubborn, the army. If Canada didn’t have the right he’d just see different people with guns, that’s the only difference. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/34 "2009-09-01T14:46:26Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > However, if you choose to remain where you are, you are accepting the legitimacy of whatever governments reign there, and therefore you have a moral imperative to pay taxes. I don’t agree with this logical sequence. The government is legitimate in that it has a right to do what it does, but that doesn’t mean I personally have to go along with it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/35 "2009-09-01T14:49:40Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Er, people with guns are already telling him what to do. If he doesn’t obey the law he’ll soon see them, they’re called the police, and, if he really wants to get stubborn, the army. > > If Canada didn’t have the right he’d just see different people with guns, that’s the only difference. No, the difference is that the _other_ people with guns would not say, “you made $50,000 this year, so you owe us $10,000,” they’d say, “give us all of your money. Also, your daughter looks like a nice piece.” ETA: In any case, we’re not talking about violent crime; we’re talking about tax evasion. He won’t get marched off by people with guns, but served with a warrant requiring him to appear in court. ---
**Author:** ![Nancarrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c37758/32.png) [@Nancarrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nancarrow)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/36 "2009-09-01T14:50:50Z")
> [@Plan\_B](#): > > Why the rush to cut off debate? Does it hurt you in some way? Are you worried about losing the debate? And then to try to stop the debate by starting a thread about it, which I think would only encourage more debate? Jesus Fucking Christ. :rolleyes: Help! Help! You’re being oppressed! Come see the violence inherent in the system! Truly, you’re a modern-day Galileo. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/37 "2009-09-01T15:25:21Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, yeah, right! Almost forgot about the libertarians, in their multitudes… We both resent your sarcasm. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/38 "2009-09-01T15:40:50Z")
Death and taxes, man. Death and taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/39 "2009-09-01T15:50:51Z")
Just to add a data point: > [@](#): > > [Michele] Bachmann also denounced a system under which some Americans pay half their income in taxes: “It’s nothing more than slavery.” > > SOURCE: [http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/09/bachmann-to-activists-slit-our-wrists-and-become-blood-brothers-against-obamas-health-care.php?ref=fpa](http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/09/bachmann-to-activists-slit-our-wrists-and-become-blood-brothers-against-obamas-health-care.php?ref=fpa) ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/40 "2009-09-01T15:55:53Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > You take the good > > You take the bad > > You take them both > > And there you have… > > _(HA HA!! Try getting that out of your head for the next hour!!)_ This is the Pit right? Well then, FUCK YOU!!! 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434.md?page=3)