# Let's bury the "Taxation is theft" meme once and for all **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 1, 2009, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434 "2009-09-01T02:35:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/41 "2009-09-01T16:14:27Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t agree with this logical sequence. The government is legitimate in that it has a right to do what it does, but that doesn’t mean I personally have to go along with it. And like he said, you have the option of leaving. But if I choose to attend the movie theater, then I have a moral obligation to obey their posted rules and not bring external candy in, because it’s their house and they make the rules. (I bring candy in anyway, but that doesn’t change the fact that I have a moral obligation not to.) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/42 "2009-09-01T16:21:26Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No, the difference is that the _other_ people with guns would not say, “you made $50,000 this year, so you owe us $10,000,” they’d say, “give us all of your money. Also, your daughter looks like a nice piece.” If the other people were smart, they’d say, “You owe us $10,000 this year, and another $10,000 next year, and so on.” You shear the sheep, you don’t skin it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/43 "2009-09-01T16:36:06Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > You aren’t special. We live in a Democratic Republic, and our elected officials sometimes buy things with tax dollars that not all of us approve of. But it’s not theft. Not even if you really, really, REALLY hate it with every fiber of your being. > > The 16th Amendment passed 96 years ago. **Get over it**. Much to agree with here. Likewise with the idea that earning money is different from stealing it from anyone. So stupid shit from the Usual Suspects about how rich people exploit the poor are just as stupid as the idea that taxes are theft. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/44 "2009-09-01T16:38:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t consider taxation “theft.” Clearly not. You are a member of the rapidly shrinking sane wing of the Republican party. > [@](#): > > I do, however, believe it’s the wisest social and governmental policy to start from the position that we should have no taxes at all, and then make a strong case for every exception, every program that seeks to use tax dollars to operate. If I could draw an analogy to buying a car, we shouldn’t start from the sticker price and negotiate downwards; we should start from the dealer’s true cost and negotiate upwards. Believe it or not, liberals think the same thing. The dividing line between a justified and an unjustified program may be different (and not just on the spending side for liberals - see defense) but for the most part taxes aren’t levied for the fun of it. Where the taxes come from is another area of dispute. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/45 "2009-09-01T16:41:13Z")
> [@Plan\_B](#): > > Why the rush to cut off debate? Does it hurt you in some way? Are you worried about losing the debate? And then to try to stop the debate by starting a thread about it, which I think would only encourage more debate? Yelling that taxation is theft, which is not validated by any law or court decision, is not debating, it is braying. If you think whoever brays louder wins, you sir, are not a debater. You are a buffoon. Go back to the barnyard with the other asses. ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/46 "2009-09-01T16:41:24Z")
Can we bury the “The gummint can’t do anything right” meme while we’re at it? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/47 "2009-09-01T16:46:00Z")
For some reason, the Right will never swallow that. The general consensus is that the government can’t do anything right except fight wars, at which it is infallible. ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/48 "2009-09-01T16:48:08Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > For some reason, the Right will never swallow that. The general consensus is that the government can’t do anything right except fight wars, at which it is infallible. And keep men from buttfucking each other, don’t forget that! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/49 "2009-09-01T16:49:23Z")
This is received wisdom, it is not subject to cite calls. As everyone knows, if you take a group of people who are operating a business and absorb them as a government entity, they become feckless and lazy the very instant they receive their first government check. That’s a true fact, you can look it up. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/50 "2009-09-01T16:50:34Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Well guess what, liberals have felt that same feeling, knowing that parts of their paychecks are going towards funding evil, immoral, unprovoked wars of aggression that cause the deaths of thousands of innocents. Mercenaries and Defense Contractors, buying fancy cars and yachts, getting rich off of human misery. I’ve never seen an “opt out of wars of aggression” check box on my tax forms. At least it’s not going to welfare! Thank you for creating a straw man and letting him run to it’s logically absurd conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/51 "2009-09-01T16:52:34Z")
Why is that a straw man? His point is valid- that we dislike our tax dollars going towards certain things just as much as conservatives do. The difference is we don’t use this as an excuse to question the legitimacy of government. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/52 "2009-09-01T16:53:45Z")
> [@LeeshaJoy](#): > > And keep men from buttfucking each other, don’t forget that! Damn straight! Men should only buttfuck WOMEN! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/53 "2009-09-01T16:58:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Much to agree with here. Likewise with the idea that earning money is different from stealing it from anyone. So stupid shit from the Usual Suspects about how rich people exploit the poor are just as stupid as the idea that taxes are theft. > > Regards, > Shodan If stupidity was a tradeable commodity none of us would be poor. However, you’re only partially right; there are a number of specific cases where the rich can be said to exploit the poor, some of which resulted in things like the legally mandated minimum wage. Whereas there are _no_ cases where taxes can be interpreted as theft, outside of those shows where mideval tax collectors come by for the second time in a day to take the last few pennies, kicking over the merchandise as they do so. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/54 "2009-09-01T17:05:46Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So stupid shit from the Usual Suspects about how rich people exploit the poor are just as stupid as the idea that taxes are theft. I’d definitely claim that SOME rich people act in an unethical and exploitative fashion. Other rich people work hard and fairly and through their labor build up mighty enterprises which provide good livings for lots of other people, raising them up from poverty, and frequently also advance human society. Some rich people do both. Some do neither. But the question of a progressive income tax for me is not because we want to punish the rich people for their presumed evil deeds. It’s a question of ability to pay and impact of paying a certain amount. But that’s a topic for another thread. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/55 "2009-09-01T17:14:22Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Much to agree with here. Likewise with the idea that earning money is different from stealing it from anyone. So stupid shit from the Usual Suspects about how rich people exploit the poor are just as stupid as the idea that taxes are theft. > > Regards, > Shodan Hey, some rich people exploit the rich also. Look at Madoff. Many are equal opportunity exploiters. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/56 "2009-09-01T17:17:02Z")
> [@Voyager to PlanB](#): > > Yelling that taxation is theft, which is not validated by any law or court decision, is not debating, it is braying. If you think whoever brays louder wins, you sir, are not a debater. You are a buffoon. Go back to the barnyard with the other asses. Well, now, hold on just a minute. Let’s not forget [Daniel Dennett](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Dennett)’s famous plea: “There is nothing I like less than bad arguments for a view that I hold dear.” There are plenty of bad arguments made about taxation being theft, but not all of them are bad. The idea — the theory; that is, the fundamental underlying ethical principle — behind taxation being theft is the tenuous association of taxation with authority. In other words, to use something of a reductio approach, the argument FOR taxation involves citations of Constitutional amendments, government authority, and if you want to step into the Way-Back Machine, we can cite the right of kings (which is much cooler, since it includes not just taxation, but [jus primae noctis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_primae_noctis) — you get to steal AND rape). And so the ethical argument against taxation is that whatever authority has been established has been either arbitrary in nature, or strongarmed into existence. I won’t bore you with carrying the principle to its logical conclusion, which you, as a very smart man, are perfectly capable of doing. But it has been said that the only difference between being mugged by a criminal (you know — “Your money or life,” and so you hand over your wallet?) and being mugged by Uncle Sam is that the ordinary mugger merely lacks the statutory authority. And just as the easiest way to create a criminal is to make a law; so it is the easiest way to create a person of authority — such as one authorized to take your money. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/57 "2009-09-01T17:19:08Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > And like he said, you have the option of leaving. But if I choose to attend the movie theater, then I have a moral obligation to obey their posted rules and not bring external candy in, because it’s their house and they make the rules. I reject the notion that the government owns the country in the sense that the theater owners own the theater. In the former case, it’s just an administrative arrangement - someone’s got to make some rules and organize collective activity. But it’s not like it (the gov) has a personal claim on the space. The people do. By contrast, in the case of a theater, no person has any claim on the theater other than the owners. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/58 "2009-09-01T17:21:00Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I reject the notion that the government owns the country in the sense that the theater owners own the theater. In the former case, it’s just an administrative arrangement - someone’s got to make some rules and organize collective activity. But it’s not like it (the gov) has a personal claim on the space. The people do. By contrast, in the case of a theater, no person has any claim on the theater other than the owners. Better analogy: the government owns the country in the sense that a theater franchise owns a franchised theater. Somebody else’s name is on the deed and he gets the profits (or losses) but they can regulate the business in lots of significant ways. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/59 "2009-09-01T17:24:25Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I reject the notion that the government owns the country in the sense that the theater owners own the theater. In the former case, it’s just an administrative arrangement - someone’s got to make some rules and organize collective activity. But it’s not like it (the gov) has a personal claim on the space. The people do. By contrast, in the case of a theater, no person has any claim on the theater other than the owners. Hate to tell you this, but those people you mention? The ones that own the country? They told the government it could tax you. So yeah. Fish or cut bait. ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/60 "2009-09-01T17:29:45Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > But it has been said that the only difference between being mugged by a criminal (you know — “Your money or life,” and so you hand over your wallet?) and being mugged by Uncle Sam is that the ordinary mugger merely lacks the statutory authority. I can think of another difference: the mugger is not going to spend the money he takes on anything that will benefit _you._ The point of taxes, on the other hand, is that the money that is taken goes back into the country in the form of roads, schools, national security, health care for those who need it, et cetera. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434.md?page=4)