# Let's bury the "Taxation is theft" meme once and for all **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 1, 2009, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434 "2009-09-01T02:35:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/81 "2009-09-01T20:45:43Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Well, now, hold on just a minute. Let’s not forget [Daniel Dennett](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Dennett)’s famous plea: “There is nothing I like less than bad arguments for a view that I hold dear.” There are plenty of bad arguments made about taxation being theft, but not all of them are bad. > > The idea — the theory; that is, the fundamental underlying ethical principle — behind taxation being theft is the tenuous association of taxation with authority. In other words, to use something of a reductio approach, the argument FOR taxation involves citations of Constitutional amendments, government authority, and if you want to step into the Way-Back Machine, we can cite the right of kings (which is much cooler, since it includes not just taxation, but [jus primae noctis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_primae_noctis) — you get to steal AND rape). And so the ethical argument against taxation is that whatever authority has been established has been either arbitrary in nature, or strongarmed into existence. > > I won’t bore you with carrying the principle to its logical conclusion, which you, as a very smart man, are perfectly capable of doing. But it has been said that the only difference between being mugged by a criminal (you know — “Your money or life,” and so you hand over your wallet?) and being mugged by Uncle Sam is that the ordinary mugger merely lacks the statutory authority. And just as the easiest way to create a criminal is to make a law; so it is the easiest way to create a person of authority — such as one authorized to take your money. Ah, but if they said taxation is immoral, or taxation is unethical, they’d be making a moral or ethical statement which can be argued. But saying “taxation is theft” is making a legal statement, since theft is illegal (even when it might be moral - starving mothers stealing bread and all that.) Since in our country taxation is done only with the will of the majority (or a supermajority in California) I reject equivalence with muggers. Taxation is more of a contract with the government, agreed to on our side (as in shrink wrapped licenses) by making use of the product/staying in the country. I feel comfortable saying it is a contract since the taxpayer gets something back, unlike the person robbed. The situation in a monarchy would be something different, and there might be an argument for taxation being like theft there, especially if there were not free egress. We can call induction slavery, we can call being forced to stop at a traffic light bondage, but that doesn’t make them true. In fact, I’d turn it around. Most people who claim taxation is theft still agree that government does fulfill some valid functions, such as defense and police work. Since they don’t appear to have any way of paying for such without taxes, they either agree that taxation is okay, and the only problem is that they are paying for stuff they don’t like (already covered in this thread) or they wish to not pay taxes but still have the protection of the military, in which case they are effectively stealing services from the rest of us who do pay. So, I’d argue that not paying taxes is the true case of theft. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/82 "2009-09-01T20:52:22Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Taxes aimed at reducing an income gap between rich and poor are theft, unless they have some other purpose Only if the go under the mattress of the White House or something. Given a level of taxation, however set, how that taxation is allocated is not going to result in anything like theft no matter if it all comes from the poor or all comes from the rich. How is taxing the rich 20% not theft and taxing them 30% is? Ditto for the poor. Or do you think it is impossible to rob the poor? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/83 "2009-09-01T21:27:52Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > First, I believe the point was that a minimum wage prevents the exploitation of the poor, by that subset of the well-to-do who hold an “all the market will bear” amoral viewpoint. No, it doesn’t, as pointed out. Either someone’s labor is worth more than minimum wage, or it is not. If it is, a minimum wage does not prevent exploitation. If it is not, you don’t get hired. How does that prevent exploitation? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/84 "2009-09-01T21:33:56Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, it doesn’t, as pointed out. > > Either someone’s labor is worth more than minimum wage, or it is not. If it is, a minimum wage does not prevent exploitation. If it is not, you don’t get hired. How does that prevent exploitation? > > Regards, > Shodan Still got no idea what I was saying, eh? Regards, Me ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/85 "2009-09-01T21:44:49Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Actually, it would be a very useful reform to have laws expire after a reasonable period (twenty years, give or take). Sure, as long as corporations have a similar life cycle. You incorporate, run the thing for twenty years, then all the assets are sold off and the profits divvied up upon the shareholders. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/86 "2009-09-01T21:52:43Z")
> [@davidw](#): > > Jesus, have you people heard of the social contract? Hobbes? Locke? Rousseau? This is freshman level political theory, people. I think what we are seeing here is part of the extreme right wing fantasy of competence. In their world other people’s lives would be nasty and short, they’ll rule the village because they are tougher and more competent than anyone else. It’s John Wayne as a political philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/87 "2009-09-01T21:59:54Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, it doesn’t, as pointed out. > > Either someone’s labor is worth more than minimum wage, or it is not. If it is, a minimum wage does not prevent exploitation. If it is not, you don’t get hired. How does that prevent exploitation? > > Regards, > Shodan If there were no minimum wage, why would it not be in the best interests of all businesses to pay well below what a worker was worth? This would only apply to workers whose skills are more or less interchangeable, but that is who the minimum wage applies to today. No explicit collusion would be needed. As we’ve seen from health insurance benefits, the needs of workers has nothing to do with how wages would be set (that would be socialism :eek:) This is not just theoretical. When I lived in Africa we had a guy who worked for us cooking and cleaning. I learned from my parents that there was strong social pressure in the community to not raise wages, because if one person did all would have to. No meetings were held on this - everyone knew. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/88 "2009-09-01T22:03:09Z")
I though of an analogy that might be more understandable to the right. When there is a debate on military tactics, it is not helpful for someone to rush in shouting that “war is murder.” War may or may not be ethical, and specific wars may or may not be ethical, but was is not murder in any reasonable sense of the term. A pacifist with this behavior (I haven’t seen any around here) would be as much of a boobie as the taxation is theft crowd. ---
**Author:** ![TheMadHun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@TheMadHun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheMadHun)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/89 "2009-09-01T22:07:15Z")
Royalty is theft. And inheritance in general is theft. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/90 "2009-09-01T22:18:05Z")
Tithing is theft. _Especially_ when it’s given willingly. Voluntary donations moreso. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/91 "2009-09-01T22:19:30Z")
And don’t even get me started on plenary indulgences! Just one of the 95 feces nailed to the door… ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/92 "2009-09-01T22:35:41Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I think what we are seeing here is part of the extreme right wing fantasy of competence. In their world other people’s lives would be nasty and short, they’ll rule the village because they are tougher and more competent than anyone else. It’s John Wayne as a political philosophy. Oh, yes, I hear that ALL the time from these people. _ **They** _ don’t need the FDA to tell them if food or drugs are poisonous, they are too smart to be fooled. _ **They** _ don’t need OSHA safety rules, those are for stupid people. _ **They** _ don’t need the ADA, because they’ll never be disabled. And so on. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/93 "2009-09-01T22:36:16Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s. A salad, a haircut, and a Palace?😉 ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/94 "2009-09-01T22:46:21Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Conservatives, do you know that awful feeling in the pit of your stomach, knowing that your hard earned tax dollars are going to help an irresponsible teen mother buy food for her child, or a poor person getting badly needed health care? > > Well guess what, liberals have felt that same feeling, knowing that parts of their paychecks are going towards funding evil, immoral, unprovoked wars of aggression that cause the deaths of thousands of innocents. Mercenaries and Defense Contractors, buying fancy cars and yachts, getting rich off of human misery. I’ve never seen an “opt out of wars of aggression” check box on my tax forms. > > You aren’t special. We live in a Democratic Republic, and our elected officials sometimes buy things with tax dollars that not all of us approve of. But it’s not theft. Not even if you really, really, REALLY hate it with every fiber of your being. > > The 16th Amendment passed 96 years ago. **Get over it**. First of all, if you’re going to pit a meme and claim a group espouses it, I think it behooves you to provide some examples of representative members of that group espousing that meme in the way you describe. The idea that it’s a generally held conservative meme is bullshit. Secondly, placing this in the pit instead of GD tells me that you’re not really interested in seriously discussing this in an intelligent fashion. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/95 "2009-09-01T22:49:50Z")
> [@Dr.Rieux](#): > > [QUOTE=Johnny L.A.] > Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s. A salad, a haircut, and a Palace?😉 [/QUOTE] That reminds me of the response to the creationist fundie owners of “Dino Adventure Land” who claimed religious persecution after getting in trouble for not bothering to get any building permits : > [@](#): > > “Scripture also says ‘Render unto Caesar what Caesar demands.’ And right now, Caesar demands a building permit,” County Commission Chairman Mike Whitehead said. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/96 "2009-09-01T23:04:47Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > First of all, if you’re going to pit a meme and claim a group espouses it, I think it behooves you to provide some examples of representative members of that group espousing that meme in the way you describe. > > The idea that it’s a generally held conservative meme is bullshit. > > Secondly, placing this in the pit instead of GD tells me that you’re not really interested in seriously discussing this in an intelligent fashion. You’re not actually claiming that many Republicans, especially now, don’t view all taxation as theft, and don’t always want lower taxes, are you? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/97 "2009-09-01T23:14:38Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > You’re not actually claiming that many Republicans, especially now, don’t view all taxation as theft, and don’t always want lower taxes, are you? You’re correct. I’ve made no such claim. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/98 "2009-09-01T23:30:13Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > You’re correct. I’ve made no such claim. Wait - what _are_ you claiming? The OP presumes that it’s taken as given that many\* Republicans, especially now, do view all taxation as theft, and do always want lower taxes. Do you or do you not claim otherwise? - well, at least more than a few - at minimum, enough to be annoying. Which on the internet means “at least one”. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/99 "2009-09-01T23:39:09Z")
> [@Claude\_Remains](#): > > At least you seem to understand that this shithole( The U.S.A.-Land of jebus that I love oh so fucking much) is a republic and not a democracy. The terms are now synonymous in common discourse and in the terminology of historians and political science. Anyone who says “Our country is a republic, not a democracy,” is not arguing but whining. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/100 "2009-09-01T23:50:02Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Wait - what _are_ you claiming? > > The OP presumes that it’s taken as given that many\* Republicans, especially now, do view all taxation as theft, and do always want lower taxes. Do you or do you not claim otherwise? > > - well, at least more than a few - at minimum, enough to be annoying. Which on the internet means “at least one”. The OP is arguing that conservatives in general as a group are making the claim that taxes being spent on things they disagree with constitutes theft. In fact, this is such a broad and constant claim that it requires burial in the pit, according to him. I myself have never ever heard a conservative make this claim in such a way. It behooves the OP to give an example or two, lest he be accused of flailing at a strawman. In the interests of clarity I would argue that some taxes are theft. The argument would have nothing to do with me being a conservative. If, for example, a government entity created an extralegal tax which it collected because it would be difficult and expensive to challenge, than yes, I would thing that would constitute theft, i.e. The Pennsylvania personal property tax which was overturned. The poll tax (a nod to you Mr. Kennedy) repealed largely to the efforts of the recently departed was in fact a theft of civil rights, and money. Or, if the taxes are onerous and disproportionate and then used improperly, that would constitute theft. I.E. There was a property tax surcharge to build a new school that was not needed around here, so that the old school and land could be sold to a family member of the head of the school district substantially below market value and then resold at an insane profit to a developer. They were prosecuted and I think those tax dollars were stolen. I could keep going with examples of taxation as theft that I think we can argue or find agreement on independant of political affiliation. I have simply never heard conservatives (or anyone for that matter) making the claim in the manner the OP seems to feel in such need of rebuttal and would like to see some examples that such is widely held among conservatives. Because, like I said, sounds like bullshit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434.md?page=6)