# Let's bury the "Taxation is theft" meme once and for all **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 1, 2009, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434 "2009-09-01T02:35:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/121 "2009-09-02T02:59:14Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And I want to get into a parsing contest with you? Again? No parsing. A gentleman’s bet. for fun. > [@](#): > > The actual wording is, of course, a bit of a joke. But, sure, many’s the time I’ve seen the approximate sentiment of "what gives you the right to take my rubber ducky and give it to my little brother? Its MY rubber ducky! Yeah, I’ve seen that one. > [@](#): > > But all it boils down to is a exaltation of property rights above all others, and that is such a common dogma amongst conservatives that they don’t even notice it any more, its one of those things everybody knows, and nobody questions. I could say “fair enough” or I could argue that it only seems that way to you left wingers who are so steeped in socialism that anything outside of the collective seems immoral. Let’s say it amounts to the same thing and pass on the customary argument. > [@](#): > > So, anyways, if its just a matter of asserting that private property rights trump and out weigh the collective well-being? I refer you to the Thread That Wouldn’t Die, on this very forum. Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/122 "2009-09-02T05:12:27Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The actual wording is, of course, a bit of a joke. But, sure, many’s the time I’ve seen the approximate sentiment of “what gives you the right to take my rubber ducky and give it to my little brother? Its MY rubber ducky!” > > But all it boils down to is a exaltation of property rights above all others, and that is such a common dogma amongst conservatives that they don’t even notice it any more, its one of those things everybody knows, and nobody questions. What **elucidator** said. This is what I’m pitting. Even if the actual words “taxation is theft” aren’t used by posters on this board (although a google search turned up many libertarians who use that exact phrase). I’ll partially concede to Scylla on that one. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/123 "2009-09-02T06:25:01Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I agree with you that the ethical argument can be made — assuming it’s made in the manner I made it, or some similar manner. I also agree with you that taxation is not legally theft. But this is one of those cases where I think people talk past each other a lot. The taxes-are-theft side is making (or attempting to make) an argument about morality and ethics, while the taxes-are-okay side is making (or attempting to make) an argument about law. Trying to stay on track in this thread, I doubt people saying that being made to pay taxes is unethical would get pitted. GDed, perhaps. But my impression is that the people yelling about taxation being theft (with very little attempt at justification) are attempting to associate it with something everyone agrees is wrong. We’ve got tons of unethical laws (like marijuana laws) that people disagree about, so calling taxation the equivalent of a drug law (I can’t think of anything slightly more appropriate now) wouldn’t have the impact. It is true we don’t have any choice about taxes, but we don’t have a choice about our electric bill either. We can reduce it by not using it, but we don’t get to argue about the rate. We can reduce our taxes by not working or any one of several other ways, but we don’t get to argue about the rate either. Is the electric company a thief? The phone company? The cable company? (Well, bad example there.) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/124 "2009-09-02T06:27:48Z")
> [@LeeshaJoy](#): > > Pick any random post by **curlcoat**. The odds are good that it’ll be expressing a sentiment very similar to what **elucidator** said. I don’t think she ever said lazy drug addict. Lazy parent perhaps, which is worse than a drug addict in her book, it seems. ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/125 "2009-09-02T06:44:23Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I don’t think she ever said lazy drug addict. Lazy parent perhaps, which is worse than a drug addict in her book, it seems. Hence why I said “very similar” as opposed to “exactly the same.” ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/126 "2009-09-02T07:57:25Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The pro-taxes side often justifies taxes by saying that you should pay what you owe, That’s what they say, but that’s a blatant lie. You don’t want people to pay what they _owe_, you want them to pay what they can _afford_. Otherwise you would support a level of “taxation” that reflected the cost of providing the services you use, instead of being so fanatically in favour of soaking the rich that you support [murdering innocent people if that’s what it takes to sustain your own life](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11264998&postcount=95). ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/127 "2009-09-02T09:10:13Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > That’s what they say, but that’s a blatant lie. You don’t want people to pay what they _owe_, you want them to pay what they can _afford_. Otherwise you would support a level of “taxation” that reflected the cost of providing the services you use, instead of being so fanatically in favour of soaking the rich that you support [murdering innocent people if that’s what it takes to sustain your own life](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11264998&postcount=95). Since when are murderous extortionists innocent? If people put their profit above my life, of course I’ll kill them if I have to, to survive. So would many, perhaps most people if they could, including most of the people who normally go on about the virtue of making a profit even if it kills people. Because suddenly the situation changes when it’s _ **you** _ who are going to die for the profit of another. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/128 "2009-09-02T13:24:24Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Actually, I’ll match this and raise it - if the government is a democracy or representative democracy, then _all_ uses of the money that are done in proper accordance with the legislative process represent compliance with the social contract on the government’s part. If you vote to buy fifty thousand dollar toilet seats, or vote in guys who vote to buy fifty thousand dollar toilet seats, then by Odin that’s what you’ve contracted your government to do. Barring literal embezzlement of government funds there is no way for the government to “steal” your tax money, since you have by-proxy agreed to every expenditure. Er, no. The legal concept of agency (upon which this argument rests) includes a duty on the part of the agent to use his delegated authority prudently. Imprudence breaks the contract. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/129 "2009-09-02T13:30:34Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I don’t gamble so I won’t take that bet, but I’d withdraw the offer if I were you. Just searching the histories of some of the board’s more libertarian members is sure to come up with lines like that, and worse. “Worse” implies that there’s something wrong with the statement. In fact, even staunch advocates of government welfare agree that it’s wrong to provide it to people who **could** work if they chose to get off their butts (as opposed to people who legitimately **cannot** work, or who have failed in an honest effort to **find** work) – the former are parasites stealing what was provided for the benefit of the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/130 "2009-09-02T13:37:09Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Since when are murderous extortionists innocent? If people put their profit above my life, of course I’ll kill them if I have to, to survive. Memo to the sellers of food, water, medical care, and other necessities in **Der Trihs** ’ neighborhood – hire extra security. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/131 "2009-09-02T15:40:02Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Since when are murderous extortionists innocent? If people put their profit above my life, of course I’ll kill them if I have to, to survive. So would many, perhaps most people if they could, including most of the people who normally go on about the virtue of making a profit even if it kills people. Because suddenly the situation changes when it’s _ **you** _ who are going to die for the profit of another. I’m honestly surprised that health insurance executives aren’t being knocked off left and right, considering all the life saving claims they have denied. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/132 "2009-09-02T15:50:48Z")
Heavens, the executives don’t deny valid claims, they have people for that. These are good men, Christians, mostly! They won’t kill somebody for a buttload of cash, they hire someone to do it for them, for far less. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/133 "2009-09-02T16:24:33Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Heavens, the executives don’t deny valid claims, they have people for that. These are good men, Christians, mostly! They won’t kill somebody for a buttload of cash, they hire someone to do it for them, for far less. Claims Adjusters (or whatever they’re called) aren’t a hazardous occupation either. But what does a person facing death have to lose? The irony is that being arrested they’d finally get health care. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/134 "2009-09-02T17:05:17Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Claims Adjusters (or whatever they’re called) aren’t a hazardous occupation either. But what does a person facing death have to lose? The irony is that being arrested they’d finally get health care. You’d be surprised. There’s a very good reason why insurance carriers _always_ have Post Office boxes. It’s certainly not unknown for some yahoo to firebomb an insurer because his claim was denied. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/135 "2009-09-02T17:54:36Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Er, no. The legal concept of agency (upon which this argument rests) includes a duty on the part of the agent to use his delegated authority prudently. Imprudence breaks the contract. Define “imprudence”. Answers must be vetted by persons of three different political affiliations, who are each so vociferous in their affiliation that they will hate the other two persons based solely on their opposing affilitions. Keep in mind that the answers that cannot be tested for without the ability to read the supposedly imprudent politician’s mind will be rejected as unusable and given to the three partisans to be used against anyone who disagrees with them. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/136 "2009-09-02T20:40:28Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > I’m honestly surprised that health insurance executives aren’t being knocked off left and right, considering all the life saving claims they have denied. They aren’t very accessible. And they prey upon sick people who are generally in no shape to do anything. > [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Memo to the sellers of food, water, medical care, and other necessities in **Der Trihs** ’ neighborhood – hire extra security. There’s a rather large difference between running a grocery store and between jacking up prices massively in a disaster area to take advantage of the lack of alternatives and people’s desperation and letting those who can’t pay die. But, hey, if they want your life savings or your daughter as a sex toy, you should just hand it or her over, right? After all, _ **nothing** _ is more important than profit. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelQReilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@MichaelQReilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelQReilly)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/137 "2009-09-02T21:13:07Z")
A good example of a conservative making almost exactly this argument in the past couple of days: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11496137&postcount=2257](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11496137&postcount=2257) ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/138 "2009-09-02T21:24:48Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > There’s a rather large difference between running a grocery store and between jacking up prices massively in a disaster area to take advantage of the lack of alternatives and people’s desperation and letting those who can’t pay die. We’ve already been through this in another thread. So if there is some disaster that causes a temporary shortage, you think you have the right to loot someone’s store? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/139 "2009-09-02T21:34:18Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > We’ve already been through this in another thread. So if there is some disaster that causes a temporary shortage, you think you have the right to loot someone’s store? If the alternative is death, yes. Survival trumps property rights. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2009, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/140 "2009-09-03T01:38:08Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > I’ll partially concede to Scylla on that one. Thanks. Playing off of what Frank said, I will say that the right to bitch because your tax dollars aren’t being used the way you would like, is sovereign and of longstanding traddittion to whatever group is out of power. However, as you say, suggesting that it’s theft when your tax dollars are used in a way you personally disagree with is idiotic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434.md?page=8)