# Let's bury the "Taxation is theft" meme once and for all **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 1, 2009, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434 "2009-09-01T02:35:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2009, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/161 "2009-09-04T20:56:08Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Whereupon I expressed flummoxity at the question, and asked you: > > **Who protects you now from the Republicans and Democrats?** > > And you come full circle with your quote above: The government [which consists of Republicans and Democrats] will protect you from the Republicans and Democrats. That’s just it. The Republicans protect us from the Democrats, and the Democrats protect us from the Republicans. Both major parties protect us from the Libertarians, and the Greens, and the Independence Party, and the Concerned Citizens Party. And the America First Party. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/162 "2009-09-05T00:24:15Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > **So the minimum wage not only protects the worker, but it protects the ethical employer from having to rip off his employees or go out of business.** Exactly. This is also the argument I would use for wealth/income redistribution. Progressive tax rates, with exemptions for those who give to appropriate charities, can counter the economic disadvantage a moral Christian, Jew, or Muslim has in comparison to someone who gives neither alms nor tithes. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/163 "2009-09-05T00:25:57Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Clearly, nothing is going to change anyone’s mind on either the moral argument (which anti-tax wins easily)… Not by a Judeo-Christian morality. Jesus was vicious in his rhetoric about the wealthy, & he was following a tradition going back to Moses. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/164 "2009-09-05T15:28:21Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > See, there’s your problem; you are unable to separate the government from the political parties. I do, and can cite numerous occasions where the Justice Department and/or the Supreme Court has acted to limit the power of the party in power. Do I need to do that, or are you willing to admit you are wrong? So what’s the difference? If it’s Democrats and Libertarians, were you expecting that the Justice Department or Supreme Court would just disappear? You claim to be able to separate the government from political parties, and yet it seems your ability evaporates when the politcal party is libertarian. > [@](#): > > The validity of my arguments is not within your control. The world continues even after you close your eyes, **Lib**. Random and pointless. All circular arguments are unsound. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The government. Besides what **Fear Itself** said,… What he said is worthless, so you are adding to nothing. > [@](#): > > …you are ( as libertarians always do ) … All atheists are idiots. Oops! Generalizations do not hold. > [@](#): > > …ignoring the fact that the government isn’t the only source of coercion and exploitation. The only thing that keeps the corporations, the wealthy, and any other large organization and wealthy/powerful individuals from running roughshod over most of the population is the government. That’s why, as I’ve said many many times, libertarians favor a very strong government — especially in the matter of suppressing coercion from whatever source. Strength would be given to duties like policing and military protection (of our own country, not half the world), as well as arbitration (including criminal cases) and contract disuputes. > [@](#): > > Libertarians want a weak government because that will render the majority of the population helpless. Easy to exploit, easy to abuse. That is simply an ignorant lie. You know about as much about political philosophy as you do theology, meaning nothing. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That’s just it. The Republicans protect us from the Democrats, and the Democrats protect us from the Republicans. Both major parties protect us from the Libertarians, and the Greens, and the Independence Party, and the Concerned Citizens Party. And the America First Party. Well, you certainly got the last part right. The Republicans and Democrats come together on two issues in particular: (1) automatic pay raises, and (2) onerous burdens on third party participation in government. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > Not by a Judeo-Christian morality. Jesus was vicious in his rhetoric about the wealthy, & he was following a tradition going back to Moses. I’m not sure what that has to do with what I said. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/165 "2009-09-08T13:12:55Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Let’s look at reality, not your little made up example. Like [this recent study](http://www.workingimmigrants.com/2009/09/new_study_on_exploitation_of_l.html) > > > [@](#): > > > > In surveying 4,387 workers in various low-wage industries, including apparel manufacturing, **child care** and discount retailing… > > No exploitation there, right? > > Let’s forget about babysitters and concentrate on people who really need the money. So babysitters don’t need the money and aren’t real? Your cite is mostly about worker’s comp, which has relatively little to do with minimum wage. But let’s pretend - liberals like that when it comes to economics. We strongly enforce the worker’s comp laws, and thus push the cost of hiring a babysitter up as high as possible. This helps those who need child care, right? But you want to concentrate on those who need the money. Fine - about 2.3% of US workers earn the federal minimum wage. Many of those earn tips as well ([cite](http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2007.htm)). And of course, most of them are teen-agers working for beer money rather than supporting themselves. So the proportion of mimimum wage earners is something like 1% - and dropping - > [@](#): > > # The proportion of hourly-paid workers earning the prevailing Federal minimum wage or less has trended downward since 1979, when data first began to be collected on a regular basis. [Cite](http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2007tbls.htm#10). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434/166 "2009-09-08T15:28:00Z")
yes indeed. You get a quarter raise and you no longer make minimum wage. The statistics for min. wage are crap. When they get a raise it does not suddenly make them middle class. They are just as damn poor as they were before they got it. The real question is how many people don’t make a living wage. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-bury-the-taxation-is-theft-meme-once-and-for-all/508434.md?page=8)