# Let's cheer the right-wing smear machine! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2005, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768 "2005-08-12T19:25:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/261 "2005-08-16T13:15:23Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > The fact that she lost her son does not give her one ounce of extra weight regarding her opinion of the Iraq war. This would be true if she were for or against it. You don’t think that those who have made a sacrifice have a little more invested than those of you who haven’t? > [@](#): > > it’s obvious that the left is using her There you go again with this charge against an amorphous “The Left” that you can never identify when challenged. Okay, tell us, O Oracle - who is this “Left” you refer to? Are you suggesting there was a board meeting of The Left, perhaps chaired by Michael Moore and George Soros, at which it was decided to go recruit a Gold Star Mother for a publicity stunt? If that’s what you mean, you’re being even more ridiculous than usual. If it isn’t, put up or shut up. > [@](#): > > This is all theater. You can only hope so. > [@](#): > > In the last poll I saw Your credibility with cites is so spotty (to be charitable) that it’s time to demand one for this, too - including the date and the wording of the question, of course. > [@](#): > > 79% of active duty military and 65% of their families support the Iraq war. Think about that. Almost 80% of the people actually serving in the war support it. That kind of cuts the legs out from under the ‘chickenhawk’ argument So when are \*you \* enlisting? > [@](#): > > As for Bush meeting with her, that would be silly. You really don’t know dick about how American politics really works, do you? Bush’s refusal is totally tone-deaf and politically damaging, especially given what he’s very publicly doing instead. Are you really that unaware how it’s playing? > [@](#): > > I would have hoped the people on the left on this board would be a little more intelligent and/or honorable than to fall lock-step into this silly ploy. Looked in a mirror recently? > [@](#): > > And it will be interesting to see how you all react when a Republican mother who lost her son (or fifty of them) comes forward to support the President. Because both sides can play that game. And it will be just as meaningless. When that actually happens, be sure to let us know. Meanwhile, be aware that you’re attempting to counter a fact with a fantasy, in the endless campaign by GOP partisans (such as yourself) to create self-excusing _tu quoques_, out of whole cloth when necessary. Do you ever wonder why your bullshit doesn’t work here? Ever? ---
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/262 "2005-08-16T13:16:03Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > I have to admit, given that Hitchens doesn’t completely toe the liberal line, how it is that Graydon Carter, Vanity Fair’s rabidly leftist editor, has allowed Hitchens so many of his spot-on analyses of leftist behavior. Because he tends to balance them out with more spot-on analyses about equally egregious right-wing behavior as exemplified by the article in this month’s issue about the as yet un-indicted co-conspirator Karl Rove. ---
**Author:** ![Rufus\_Xavier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@Rufus\_Xavier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rufus_Xavier)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/263 "2005-08-16T13:32:19Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > In the last poll I saw, 79% of active duty military and 65% of their families support the Iraq war. Think about that. Almost 80% of the people actually serving in the war support it. That kind of cuts the legs out from under the ‘chickenhawk’ argument, and it also means that Mrs. Sheehan’s opinion isn’t even shared by a majority of her fellow war families. Actually, it doesn’t even make a dent in the chickenhawk argument. To do that, you would need a poll that shows that almost 80% of the people actually supporting the war served in it. I’m sure it’s not nearly as hard to find active duty soldiers who support the war as it is to find family members of the Bush administration on active duty. ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/264 "2005-08-16T14:16:03Z")
You know, it occurs to me that the Left is demanding that Cindy Sheehan be listened to respectfully and without _any_ criticism of her motives, due to the terrible pain she has endured on behalf of her country. It doesn’t matter which liberal websites she’s posting on, it doesn’t matter which radical leftist groups are aligning themselves with her and it doesn’t matter at all if her position has (arguably) changed over the past year. Fine. Fair enough. But you know what? I can think of another group of people who sacrificed for their country who recently decided to speak out against another politician. The Swift Boat vets. I don’t seem to remember the liberals in this country granting these 60 or so decorated combat veterans any slack when it was their turn criticize John Kerry. Do you? All I seem to recall is that they were called “liars” who were backed by “the GOP and Karl Rove.” Isn’t it possible, just possible, that the Swift Boat vets were just as honest in their criticism of Kerry as is Cindy Sheehan in her criticism of Bush? Or were they just being “used” by right-wing groups to help defeat John Kerry? I’m just asking… ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/265 "2005-08-16T14:22:52Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > I can think of another group of people who sacrificed for their country who recently decided to speak out against another politician. The Swift Boat vets. Great point. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/266 "2005-08-16T14:30:30Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > You know, it occurs to me that the Left is demanding that Cindy Sheehan be listened to respectfully and without _any_ criticism of her motives, due to the terrible pain she has endured on behalf of her country. It doesn’t matter which liberal websites she’s posting on, it doesn’t matter which radical leftist groups are aligning themselves with her and it doesn’t matter at all if her position has (arguably) changed over the past year. Fine. Fair enough. > > But you know what? I can think of another group of people who sacrificed for their country who recently decided to speak out against another politician. The Swift Boat vets. I don’t seem to remember the liberals in this country granting these 60 or so decorated combat veterans any slack when it was their turn criticize John Kerry. Do you? All I seem to recall is that they were called “liars” who were backed by “the GOP and Karl Rove.” Isn’t it possible, just possible, that the Swift Boat vets were just as honest in their criticism of Kerry as is Cindy Sheehan in her criticism of Bush? Or were they just being “used” by right-wing groups to help defeat John Kerry? I’m just asking… NO > **[Kerry should sue thr Swift Boat VfT / Bush should sue CBS](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=276336)** > > Both men have arguably been defamed by lies - Kerry by the Swift Boat Veterans’ debunked attacks, and Bush by the forged documents presented by CBS with not even minimal effort at due diligence. Both should sue. In 1964, another sitting Senator ran... ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/267 "2005-08-16T14:34:46Z")
> [@plnnr](#): > > Because he tends to balance them out with more spot-on analyses about equally egregious right-wing behavior as exemplified by the article in this month’s issue about the as yet un-indicted co-conspirator Karl Rove. That and “the left-wing” is intellectually honest enough to allow self criticism and introspection, something Bush could use a little of himself. > [@](#): > > “I’m also not very analytical. You know I don’t spend a lot of time thinking about myself, about why I do things.”—Aboard Air Force One, June 4, 2003 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/268 "2005-08-16T14:36:24Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > I don’t seem to remember the liberals in this country granting these 60 or so decorated combat veterans any slack when it was their turn criticize John Kerry. Do you? All I seem to recall is that they were called “liars” who were backed by “the GOP and Karl Rove.” Isn’t it possible, just possible, that the Swift Boat vets were just as honest in their criticism of Kerry as is Cindy Sheehan in her criticism of Bush? The Swifties were indeed determined to be lying, pretty much right across the board. Read [this](http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/) for the facts. There’s no question of “slack”, nor is the accusation of lying just more rhetoric. The \*fact \* is that they \*were \* lying. Why should that not be discussed? ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/269 "2005-08-16T14:43:21Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The Swifties were indeed determined to be lying, pretty much right across the board. Read [this](http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/) for the facts. There’s no question of “slack”, nor is the accusation of lying just more rhetoric. The \*fact \* is that they \*were \* lying. Why should that not be discussed? Uh huh. Sure. 60 or highly decorated combat veterans just decided to all get together and trash their reputations by ‘lying’ about John Kerry? I’m sorry, but you’re gonna have to do a little bit better than that. Your website is meaningless. Do you have any credible sources showing the Swift Boat vets all decided to lie about Kerry? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/270 "2005-08-16T14:46:06Z")
Horse, meet water. ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/271 "2005-08-16T14:46:45Z")
[http://www.factcheck.org/article231.html](http://www.factcheck.org/article231.html) How’s that? Will you admit they lied? OR maybe the Navy lied. It’s hard to tell. ---
**Author:** ![Domokun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c77e96/32.png) [@Domokun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Domokun)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/272 "2005-08-16T14:53:39Z")
> [@light strand](#): > > [http://www.factcheck.org/article231.html](http://www.factcheck.org/article231.html) .org? Clearly they’re communists. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/273 "2005-08-16T14:56:49Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > You know, it occurs to me that the Left is demanding that Cindy Sheehan be listened to respectfully and without _any_ criticism of her motives, due to the terrible pain she has endured on behalf of her country. Question her motives all you want. gratuitous ad hominems, on the other hand, are a different matter. > [@](#): > > Uh huh. Sure. 60 or highly decorated combat veterans just decided to all get together and trash their reputations by ‘lying’ about John Kerry? [Actually, for once you’ve almost got it right.](http://www.billingsgazette.com/index.php?id=1&tts=1&display=rednews/2004/09/01/build/state/25-swift-boat.inc) > [@](#): > > I’m pretty nonpolitical," the 56-year-old Anderson said Tuesday. So, when he found out last week that his name was one of about 300 signed on a letter questioning Kerry’s service, he was “flabbergasted.” > “It’s kind of like stealing my identity,” said Anderson, who spent a year on a swift boat as an engine man and gunner. > The letter, which was posted on the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth Web site, claims the Demo-cratic presidential candidate has “grossly and knowingly distorted the conduct of the American soldiers, marines, sailors and airmen of that (Vietnam) war.” The letter also criticizes Kerry for trying to change his image from a critic of the war to a war hero. > “After reading the letter,” Anderson said, “it kind of got under my skin. I had never come across a situation where someone used my name without my support or approval. It’s not a very comforting feeling.” Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t the head of the Swifties recruited by Nixon for the **express purpose of smearing Kerry**? ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/274 "2005-08-16T15:00:40Z")
But…but… it’s got footnotes! I didn’t figure **Stephe96** would consider the Navy itself as a “credible sources” anyway. Because, by God, if they don’t agree with Rush, then they can’t be true Lalalalalala, I can’t hear you! However, I will tell you the similarities between Shehan, ans Kerry. Both are victims of a right-wing smear machine, who will stop at nothing to get their “talking points’ (Sweet Jesus I hate that phrase) on the air. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/275 "2005-08-16T15:34:41Z")
> [@SamStone](#): > > it’s obvious that the left is using her Great. Works both ways. She’s obviously media-savvy and is using loosely related assets of the anti-war movement to get her message out to as many people as possible. Having read and seen her story in Spanish TV and print, I’d say she is doing just that. And seeing how the Chimp is bleeding in the polls, the timing’s perfect too. > [@](#): > > This is all theater As is the Iraq invasion to emotionally disconnected cheerleaders such as yourself. > [@](#): > > Think about that. Almost 80% of the people actually serving in the war support it. That kind of cuts the legs out from under the ‘chickenhawk’ argument Horsefeathers, chickenlittle! Show them the “courage of your convictions” by visiting your friendly recruiting office – and yes, I’m pretty sure they’ll make an exception for a Canadian: [U.S. seeking foreign fighters to fill Iraq jobs](http://www.sunherald.com/mld/thesunherald/news/world/12273064.htm) _Of course_ you’d expect a feeling of solidarity amongst the majority of the US rank and file; otherwise you’d have yet another insurgency to deal with and no one to fight it with – not you, Shrub, **Scylla** , or the majority of the Neocrazies. As for the troops, they are professional soldiers carrying out a mission. It’s what they are trained for and their lives often hang on that very esprit de corps that is fostered in the military – even if they don’t necessarily agree with their mission. Having said that, I’d also like to see where you got your numbers from – you’re not exactly a bulwark of credibility as far as I am concerned. Plus there’s this: [Majority of soldiers say Iraq morale low](http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/iraq/military/072005ccjrcwiraqmorale.16592a01.html) Dallas Morning News, July 20, 2005. Registration required. Pertinent citation, lenght of same hopefully within SDMB bounds: > [@](#): > > The Army sent a team of mental health specialists to Iraq and Kuwait late last summer to assess conditions and measure progress in implementing programs designed to fix mental health problems discovered during a similar survey of troops a year earlier. Its report, dated Jan. 30, 2005, was released Wednesday. The good: > [@](#): > > The overall assessment said 13 percent of soldiers in the most recent study screened positive for a mental health problem, compared with 18 percent a year earlier. Symptoms of acute or post-traumatic stress remained the top mental health problem, affecting at least 10 percent of all soldiers checked in the latest survey. > > In the anonymous survey, 17 percent of soldiers said they had experienced moderate or severe stress or problems with alcohol, emotions or their families. That compares with 23 percent a year earlier. The bad: > [@](#): > > Only 55 percent of National Guard support soldiers said they have “real confidence” in their unit’s ability to perform its mission, compared with 63 percent of active-duty Army support soldiers. And only 28 percent of the Guard troops rated their level of training as high, compared with 50 percent of their active-duty counterparts. > > Small focus groups were held to ascertain troop morale. > > **The report said 54 percent of soldiers rated their units’ morale as low or very low. The comparable figure in a year-earlier Army survey was 72 percent.** Although respondents said “combat stressors” like mortar attacks were higher in the most recent survey, “noncombat stressors” like uncertain tour lengths were much lower, the report said. (bolding mine) Not quite the same rosy picture you’d have us believe, is it? > [@](#): > > And it will be interesting to see how you all react when a Republican mother who lost her son (or fifty of them) comes forward to support the President. Because both sides can play that game. Get to it right quick. I’ll even help you with the name: “Mothers for Continuing the Iraq Clusterfuck” or MCIC, for expediency. De nada. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/276 "2005-08-16T15:42:47Z")
Certainly sounds better than “Gold Star Moms for Terror”. ---
**Author:** ![THespos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@THespos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/THespos)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/277 "2005-08-16T15:58:19Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > You know, it occurs to me that the Left is demanding that Cindy Sheehan be listened to respectfully and without _any_ criticism of her motives, due to the terrible pain she has endured on behalf of her country. It doesn’t matter which liberal websites she’s posting on, it doesn’t matter which radical leftist groups are aligning themselves with her and it doesn’t matter at all if her position has (arguably) changed over the past year. Fine. Fair enough. \There you go again.\ On top of making near-constant references to Sheehan’s alignment with “radical leftist groups,” you keep engaging in hyperbole with regard to this amorphous group you call “the Left” (with a capital “L”). Since you appear to be painting with a bigger brush than any I’ve seen, I can only assume you’re talking about liberals in general, in which case I need for you to show me just exactly how “the Left” is demanding no one criticize Sheehan’s motives. Oh, and I’ve been waiting patiently for 6 pages for your cite regarding the earlier assertion you made regarding how Sheehan is being controlled by either Michael Moore or MoveOn. Where is it? Put up or shut up. ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/278 "2005-08-16T16:07:37Z")
> [@THespos](#): > > \There you go again.\ > > On top of making near-constant references to Sheehan’s alignment with “radical leftist groups,” you keep engaging in hyperbole with regard to this amorphous group you call “the Left” (with a capital “L”). Since you appear to be painting with a bigger brush than any I’ve seen, I can only assume you’re talking about liberals in general, in which case I need for you to show me just exactly how “the Left” is demanding no one criticize Sheehan’s motives. > > Oh, and I’ve been waiting patiently for 6 pages for your cite regarding the earlier assertion you made regarding how Sheehan is being controlled by either Michael Moore or MoveOn. Where is it? Put up or shut up. As soon as any lib shows me proof that the Swift Boat vets were controlled by Karl Rove. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/279 "2005-08-16T16:09:45Z")
Fine. The Left has no problem believing that sixty or so highly decorated combat veterans decided to get together and lie about John Kerry’s four months in Vietnam, totally trashing their reputations in the process. They made charges, by the way, that I don’t seem to recall Kerry as calling “lies.” In fact, I don’t remember Kerry addressing the Swift Boat vets at all. OK. Now. Can’t these same liberals admit that there is a chance, a _chance_, that Cindy Sheehan who: -Met with President Bush last year, had the chance to call him a ‘murderer’ to his face but didn’t. In fact, said very nice things about him…whether out-of-context or not, she still said them… -Is now posting daily to Michael Moore’s website… -Whose husband has filed for divorce and whose family is apparently asking her to stop her vigil and come home… Can you libs admit that there is the chance that Sheehan has in fact been “gotten to” and is being used by a group of twisted Bush-hating extremist libs to suit their own agendas? Is it just possible? And if so, shouldn’t an investigation into her motives be welcomed? Even encouraged? Or is that too much of a ‘smear?’ I suspect she is being used. I don’t see why that is so hard to believe…or why it’s considered ‘trashing’ her to point it out. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/280 "2005-08-16T16:12:08Z")
> [@THespos](#): > > Oh, and I’ve been waiting patiently for 6 pages for your cite regarding the earlier assertion you made regarding how Sheehan is being controlled by either Michael Moore or MoveOn. Where is it? Put up or shut up. What exactly would constitute proof of this? I can save you the suspense: there probably isn’t a picture out there of Moore with his hand up her ass. However, that she is linked to these groups, and more radical ones like Code Pink is not in dispute. Obviously this affects her credibility. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768.md?page=15)