# Let's cheer the right-wing smear machine! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2005, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768 "2005-08-12T19:25:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/281 "2005-08-16T16:13:16Z")
The morale issue relies on the opinions of soldiers in determining overall unit morale. I’ve seen first hand that this is not always a reliable measurement. When I was stationed in Sigonella, and we were mobilized for the Yugoslav conflict, anyone there would have reported low morale. We were all working long hours under less than ideal conditions. Nobody felt like we had enough materiel support. In addition, a new Officer-in-Charge and some personal problems among the crew contributed to this overall perception. Through it all, though, we performed our job flawlessly, to the point that the unit was given a Joint Meritorious Unit Award and a Navy Unit Commendation. We also had decent retention, even winning a Golden Anchor one year for reenlistments and promotions. I remember clearly discussing the perceived low morale with my division officer at the time, and he allowed as how it didn’t matter whether we were always perfectly happy, only that we could always do our jobs. That’s not to say, of course, that morale and mission readiness is hunky-dory in Iraq. Just that I don’t rely on polls to make these determinations. That’s what a chain of command is for. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/282 "2005-08-16T16:20:04Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > Fine. The Left has no problem believing that sixty or so highly decorated combat veterans decided to get together and lie about John Kerry’s four months in Vietnam, totally trashing their reputations in the process. Did you even bother to read **light strand** ’s cite? :dubious: > [@light strand](#): > > I didn’t figure **Stephe96** would consider the Navy itself as a “credible sources” anyway. Looks like you’re right. If the Navy diasgrees with a party-supported political group, the Navy must be wrong. :rolleyes: > [@Stephe96](#): > > As soon as any lib shows me proof that the Swift Boat vets were controlled by Karl Rove. 😛 Fish off of moving (Swift?) boats much? ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/283 "2005-08-16T16:20:04Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > Fine. The Left has no problem believing that sixty or so highly decorated combat veterans decided to get together and lie about John Kerry’s four months in Vietnam, totally trashing their reputations in the process. They made charges, by the way, that I don’t seem to recall Kerry as calling “lies.” In fact, I don’t remember Kerry addressing the Swift Boat vets at all. OK. > > Now. Can’t these same liberals admit that there is a chance, a _chance_, that Cindy Sheehan who: > > -Met with President Bush last year, had the chance to call him a ‘murderer’ to his face but didn’t. In fact, said very nice things about him…whether out-of-context or not, she still said them… > > -Is now posting daily to Michael Moore’s website… > > -Whose husband has filed for divorce and whose family is apparently asking her to stop her vigil and come home… > > Can you libs admit that there is the chance that Sheehan has in fact been “gotten to” and is being used by a group of twisted Bush-hating extremist libs to suit their own agendas? Is it just possible? And if so, shouldn’t an investigation into her motives be welcomed? Even encouraged? Or is that too much of a ‘smear?’ > > I suspect she is being used. I don’t see why that is so hard to believe…or why it’s considered ‘trashing’ her to point it out. I don’t think anyone has said there isn’t a chance, but you and those of your ilk seem to believe it’s a foregone conclusion. Would you say there’s a chance, yes just a _chance_, that Mrs. Sheehan, who lost her son in a war, and whose been denouncing this war prior to her first meeting with Bush is sincere? Is there a chance, just a _chance_ that she may simply find it convenient to post on Moore’s and MoveOn’s web site, simply because they are an expedient way to speak to like-minded people? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/284 "2005-08-16T16:21:36Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Certainly sounds better than “Gold Star Moms for Terror”. You are so going to hell for that one. Me, too, for laughing. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/285 "2005-08-16T16:21:54Z")
> [@plnnr](#): > > Because he tends to balance them out with more spot-on analyses about equally egregious right-wing behavior as exemplified by the article in this month’s issue about the as yet un-indicted co-conspirator Karl Rove. So you’re saying he’s “fair and balanced” after all? No wonder he got ragged on here! ---
**Author:** ![Club\_33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@Club\_33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Club_33)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/286 "2005-08-16T16:22:05Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > As soon as any lib shows me proof that the Swift Boat vets were controlled by Karl Rove. 😛 So, in other words, you have no proof and are talking out of your ass. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/287 "2005-08-16T16:23:28Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > What exactly would constitute proof of this? It’s \*your \* assertion. Just tell us how you reached that conclusion - if in fact it \*is \* the product of reasoning based on facts. > [@](#): > > However, that she is linked to these groups, and more radical ones like Code Pink is not in dispute. Obviously this affects her credibility. Tell us what you mean by “linked”, while you’re at it - is it the same way Saddam was “linked” to Osama? **Steph** , you could save yourself a ton of embarrassment by simply reading the material you’ve already been given. Your claim, btw, that a person’s getting a divorce is evidence of “twisted Bush-hating extremist” politics is, well, quite remarkable. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/288 "2005-08-16T16:59:07Z")
> [@light strand](#): > > Would you say there’s a chance, yes just a _chance_, that Mrs. Sheehan, who lost her son in a war, and whose been denouncing this war prior to her first meeting with Bush is sincere? This point can’t be stressed enough I think. Why is there a need to think this woman is being influenced by anything else about her view about the war other than _the death of her son_? Occam must be spinning in his grave. Of course, that’s a rhetorical question, everybody with a brain sees it’s an _ad hominem_ attack on her. But likely a counter-productive one, in my opinion. If I was a strong supporter of the war I would counter her view with whatever reasons I would have for supporting the war, and point out that unfortunately people die in wars. I suppose the people who try to counter Sheehan’s view with these “she’s been brainwashed by Michael Moore and Jimmy Carter and Barbara Streisand and the pulsating brain of Che Guevara in John Kerry’s rec room aquarium” theories must not be too confident of their arguments in support of the war anymore. If the war was justified, no other arguments are needed to counter this woman’s claims. All this bullshit about who’s influencing her and her divorce is classic textbook _ad hominem_. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/289 "2005-08-16T18:07:39Z")
**MrMoto** , I agree with you this time around. Low morale does not necessarily equate mission failure. I simply provided that cite to counter **Sam’s** own Panglossian view. I’d also like to add that as a father of a soon to be of draft-age boy, myself, I can certainly understand the need for many a family member of those in service to attempt to find some sort of “noble cause” in this sordid mess. After all no one wants to die for “nothing,” much less volunteer to do so. But yet that is precisely what those of us who opposed this war all along – and the many that have “flip-flopped” since – have been saying all along. What did Casey die for? What was **truly** so urgent/important to the US’s vital interests that the dogs of war, with all the horrific consequences (both known and unknown, if I may borrow from Rumsfeld) of doing so, had to be let out? And that’s exactly the question/indictment that Mrs. Sheehan wants the President to answer. Problem is, outside dogmatic faith in policies that have _already backfired_ just like many of us predicted they would, manipulated charges against Iraq and post 9/11 emotional exploitation, _he does not have one_. What was that Kerry said about ‘asking the last man to die for a mistake’? Seems particularly apropos under the circunstances. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/290 "2005-08-16T18:15:56Z")
Meant to preview. That last paragraph should read: What was that Kerry said about ‘asking the last man to die for a mistake’? It would seem particularly apropos under the circunstances – 'cept this was no mistake. Those that launched this war knew exactly what they were doing. To the point of starting the war that is…the rest was all faith-based. And we can all see how well _that’s_ going. ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/291 "2005-08-16T18:52:20Z")
[QUOTE=Revtim] This point can’t be stressed enough I think. Why is there a need to think this woman is being influenced by anything else about her view about the war other than _the death of her son_? Occam must be spinning in his grave. QUOTE] Because she’s already met with Bush. She could’ve called him a ‘murderer’ to his face. She didn’t. She said nice things about him. But now, all of a sudden, she’s calling him a “liar” and a “murderer” and…well, how 'bout that? She’s also posting daily on Michael Moore’s website. It doesn’t take a genius to suspect that something funny is going on. I’d like to know who came up with idea of camping out at Bush’s ranch. That kind of tactic, along with exploiting grieving mothers for ratings and box-office, has Michael Moore’s fingerprints all over it. I suspect that some wacko Bush-hating group suggested the idea to her and has been supporting her financially all along. I’d simply like to know how far back her connection with Moore goes. I think we have the right to know. Don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/292 "2005-08-16T18:59:46Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > Because she’s already met with Bush. She could’ve called him a ‘murderer’ to his face. She didn’t. She said nice things about him. > > But now, all of a sudden, she’s calling him a “liar” and a “murderer” and…well, how 'bout that? She’s also posting daily on Michael Moore’s website. It doesn’t take a genius to suspect that something funny is going on. > > I’d like to know who came up with idea of camping out at Bush’s ranch. That kind of tactic, along with exploiting grieving mothers for ratings and box-office, has Michael Moore’s fingerprints all over it. I suspect that some wacko Bush-hating group suggested the idea to her and has been supporting her financially all along. I’d simply like to know how far back her connection with Moore goes. I think we have the right to know. Don’t you? And again, this is all pure _ad hominem_. If you don’t know what that means, Google it. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/293 "2005-08-16T19:06:32Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > And again, this is all pure _ad hominem_. If you don’t know what that means, Google it. You say ad hominem; I say simple, common-sense cognizance. (If you don’t know what that means, [M-W.com](http://M-W.com) it.) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![light\_strand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@light\_strand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/light_strand)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/294 "2005-08-16T19:10:37Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > Because she’s already met with Bush. She could’ve called him a ‘murderer’ to his face. She didn’t. She said nice things about him. > > But now, all of a sudden, she’s calling him a “liar” and a “murderer” and…well, how 'bout that? She’s also posting daily on Michael Moore’s website. It doesn’t take a genius to suspect that something funny is going on. > > I’d like to know who came up with idea of camping out at Bush’s ranch. That kind of tactic, along with exploiting grieving mothers for ratings and box-office, has Michael Moore’s fingerprints all over it. I suspect that some wacko Bush-hating group suggested the idea to her and has been supporting her financially all along. I’d simply like to know how far back her connection with Moore goes. I think we have the right to know. Don’t you? Goddamn you’re a dense little one aren’t you. I’ve already given you a valid [cite](http://www.thereporter.com/search/ci_2923921) where your above assumptions are shown false. That is the original 2004 source of all of the shit the right been flinging like three year old Macaques. > [@](#): > > We haven’t been happy with the way the war has been handled," Cindy said. “The president has changed his reasons for being over there every time a reason is proven false or an objective reached.” > > The 10 minutes of face time with the president could have given the family a chance to vent their frustrations or ask Bush some of the difficult questions they have been asking themselves, such as whether Casey’s sacrifice would make the world a safer place. > > But in the end, the family decided against such talk, deferring to how they believed Casey would have wanted them to act. In addition, Pat noted that Bush wasn’t stumping for votes or trying to gain a political edge for the upcoming election. Moreover, your conspiratorial suspicions don’t mean a tinker’s damn in the real world. I give you info, educate yourself. The Swiftboaters lied, and Sheehan didn’t like the Bush policy prior to her first visit. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/295 "2005-08-16T19:16:44Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > You say ad hominem; I say simple, common-sense cognizance. > > (If you don’t know what that means, [M-W.com](http://M-W.com) it.) 😃 Do you actually believe these attacks on her regarding Moore disprove her arguments and claims? If so, you have a very basic misunderstanding of logic. ---
**Author:** ![THespos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@THespos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/THespos)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/296 "2005-08-16T19:56:27Z")
Surprise, surprise. More of the same crapola that makes trying to have a civilized debate with many neocons like debating a brick wall. Seems to be SOP these days… 1. Initiate ad hominem attack 2. Receive evidence showing already flimsy substance behind attack is horseshit 3. Ignore evidence 4. Reassert ad hominem attack 5. Repeat step #4 until people get so sick of hearing it that many of them start to believe it’s true **Stephe96** , your method of asserting your point of view reminds me of that episode of The Simpsons where Marge asks Homer what he wants for dinner, and he keeps going “Steak?” over and over again until Marge caves. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/297 "2005-08-16T20:10:34Z")
> [@THespos](#): > > Surprise, surprise. More of the same crapola that makes trying to have a civilized debate with many neocons like debating a brick wall. Seems to be SOP these days… Argument by attrition. I suspect I should have trademarked that phrase. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/298 "2005-08-16T20:14:44Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > But now, all of a sudden, she’s calling him a “liar” and a “murderer” and…well, how 'bout that? She’s also posting daily on Michael Moore’s website. It doesn’t take a genius to suspect that something funny is going on. Quite true. In fact, it appears it would take exactly the opposite to suspect that. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/299 "2005-08-16T20:19:30Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > So, anyone who continues to support Bush and the Iraq war has “drunk the coolaid” unless they are a parent of a soldier who died in Iraq? :rolleyes: Even by your lax standards, **John,** that was a shoddy strawman. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2005, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/300 "2005-08-16T20:29:25Z")
> [@light strand](#): > > The Swiftboaters lied No they did not. Some of their claims lacked complete evidence, but most of what they claimed was accurate. **Sam Stone** did a good job back in the many trainwreck threads pointing this out. Just because he was outnumbered twenty to one doesn’t mean that this issue is settled. > [@](#): > > Sheehan didn’t like the Bush policy prior to her first visit. Nobody has claimed she did. Her story has changed on other elements of the meeting. Specifically, the reaction of Bush and his concern/caring or lack therof. She’s done a complete 180 on this. Also, she’s done a complete 180 on the issue of confronting Bush. At first she wanted to respect what her son would have wanted and be civil to Bush. Now she’s thrashing about wildly at Bush, Neocons, the media in general, Isreal, you name it. Simply pointing this out does not make a “smear”. It’s just reporting the full truth. The entire premise of this OP is bullshit. That so many have come forward to defend it is telling. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768.md?page=16)