# Let's cheer the right-wing smear machine! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2005, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768 "2005-08-12T19:25:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/41 "2005-08-12T21:35:55Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > Let’s all remember that Bush could not have sent troops to Iraq without the authorization of Congress. Funny…but I don’t see Cindy Sheehan camped outside of John Kerry or Hillary Clinton’s office asking why _they_ voted to send her son to his death. What was so important in Iraq that Kerry and Hillary felt compelled to send US troops into battle for? While we’re at it, why doesn’t Cindy demand that Kerry and Hillary join her in Crawford and publically demand the president to bring all US troops home? > > But I guess that doesn’t really fit in with the Michael Moore, Move-On “Bush Lied, Troops Died” template, does it? Come now, Bush initiated the drive to war. Yes, Congress deserves some of the blame for going along with him, but the push for war began in the White House, not on Capital Hill. As the primary architect of the Iraq War, the lion’s share of the blame (or praise) belongs to the President. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/42 "2005-08-12T21:36:26Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > Would you listen to yourself? You sound like a lunatic. Bush initiated the idea of invading Iraq and pushed to make it happen. To pretend anyone else bears even a fraction of responsibility for this event taking place, for better or for worse, is idiotic. That didn’t come out right. I meant to say something like “Bush bears way more responsibility than anyone else and to pretend otherwise is idiotic”. Me no good at the English today. ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/43 "2005-08-12T21:38:57Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > Come now, Bush initiated the drive to war. Yes, Congress deserves some of the blame for going along with him, but the push for war began in the White House, not on Capital Hill. As the primary architect of the Iraq War, the lion’s share of the blame (or praise) belongs to the President. I’ve never said differently. But if Congress had voted “No,” then we wouldn’t be in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/44 "2005-08-12T21:39:26Z")
> [@THespos](#): > > Can I steal that “mental Band-Aids” bit? That sums things up nicely. Please do. Actually, I wouldn’t mind seeing the Standard Republican Excuses meme get a bit of play. It’s a useful bit of disinfectant. The quicker the SRE’s are dismissed the quicker the real debate can begin. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/45 "2005-08-12T21:40:54Z")
Perhaps if the evidence to convince Congress to conditionally authorize hadn’t been falsified, or massaged, then we wouldn’t be in Iraq. Who’s to blame for that? ---
**Author:** ![THespos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@THespos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/THespos)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/46 "2005-08-12T21:41:14Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > I’ve never said differently. But if Congress had voted “No,” then we wouldn’t be in Iraq. And if the administration hadn’t faked the WMD evidence, Congress would likely have voted “No.” What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/47 "2005-08-12T21:45:54Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > I’ve never said differently. But if Congress had voted “No,” then we wouldn’t be in Iraq. Why, you’re right! And if the U.S. voters had elected a Congress that would have voted “No,” then there wouldn’t have been a war either! Unless Cindy Sheehan pickets EVERY SINGLE PERSON in the United States she’s a PARTISAN HYPOCRITE! Congress wasn’t pushing for war. The White House was. The White House led, and Congress followed. So the responsibility for the success or failure of the endeavor lies primarily (but not totally) with the White House. Why is this so hard to understand? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/48 "2005-08-12T21:49:26Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > Let’s all remember that Bush could not have sent troops to Iraq without the authorization of Congress. Funny…but I don’t see Cindy Sheehan camped outside of John Kerry or Hillary Clinton’s office asking why _they_ voted to send her son to his death. What was so important in Iraq that Kerry and Hillary felt compelled to send US troops into battle for? While we’re at it, why doesn’t Cindy demand that Kerry and Hillary join her in Crawford and publically demand the president to bring all US troops home? > > But I guess that doesn’t really fit in with the Michael Moore, Move-On “Bush Lied, Troops Died” template, does it? It sure does not fit in pea brained beings that can not realize that the resolution passed by Congress authorized the use of force, **if necessary** , against Iraq. Bush (as the evidence is mounting) choose to manipulate or ignore the evidence to justify the war, Bush even signed the letter telling congress he had the goods and for his eternal shame: [http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/19/sprj.irq.bush/](http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/19/sprj.irq.bush/) > [@](#): > > Bush said any action against Iraq would be “consistent” with “necessary actions” against terrorists following the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks against the United States He had to equivocate the war against terror with an elective war. One bumper sticker spotted recently: _ **Support Our Troops, Impeach Bush** _ ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/49 "2005-08-12T21:49:45Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > Why is this so hard to understand? It’s easy to understand. It’s just hard to spin away in a talking point without looking like a complete moron. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/50 "2005-08-12T21:50:17Z")
This is a delicious lose/lose proposition for Bush. If he refuses to meet with her, he is heartless towards a Gold Star mother. If he does meet with her, he is a weak flip-flopper. I don’t care what he does, so long as he doesn’t make up his mind for a few more weeks. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/51 "2005-08-12T21:59:16Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > It’s easy to understand. It’s just hard to spin away in a talking point without looking like a complete moron. Not, to their credit, that many pundits as well as civilians aren’t trying to spin it, though. It all looks good from here. ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/52 "2005-08-12T22:10:54Z")
> [@THespos](#): > > And if the administration hadn’t faked the WMD evidence, Congress would likely have voted “No.” What’s your point? Here’s my point: why doesn’t Sheehan demand that Kerry and Hillary join her in Crawford, _admit_ that they were misled by this lying president and renounce their original votes? Can’t they admit that they made a mistake by trusting Bush? Shouldn’t they make known loudly and often that they now oppose this unjust war? Kerry and Hillary _are_ opposed to this war, right? They _would_ vote differently now, yes? Ted Kennedy was smart enough not to trust Bush with going to war…why were Hillary and Kerry so easily fooled? ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/53 "2005-08-12T22:21:51Z")
Wait, wait…this is too good. So, now you’re saying that they should have tried harder to stop the war? Whereas before, they were being criticized for trying at all and not being in lockstep? BAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA… Sorry. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/54 "2005-08-12T22:21:54Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > Here’s my point: why doesn’t Sheehan demand that Kerry and Hillary join her in Crawford, _admit_ that they were misled by this lying president and renounce their original votes? Can’t they admit that they made a mistake by trusting Bush? Shouldn’t they make known loudly and often that they now oppose this unjust war? Kerry and Hillary _are_ opposed to this war, right? They _would_ vote differently now, yes? Ted Kennedy was smart enough not to trust Bush with going to war…why were Hillary and Kerry so easily fooled? Tell the truth: you’re actually a robot, aren’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/55 "2005-08-12T22:25:48Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > Ted Kennedy was smart enough not to trust Bush with going to war…why were Hillary and Kerry so easily fooled? _"You fucked up - you trusted us! "_ —Otter, from _Animal House_ ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/56 "2005-08-12T22:28:29Z")
> [@](#): > > **Gangster Octopus** > Would you not agree that commanding officers have a responsibility as well to their troops? Of course, but those responsibilities do not extend to the Commander-in-Chief personally justifying strategic decisions to the mothers of fallen soldiers. I was never placed in a situation as threatening as Iraq, but I did serve in a unit whose life expectancy in the event of open hostilities with the Soviet union (pre-fall, obviously) was less than 10 minutes. Had the worst come to pass I would not have expected President Reagan to personally meet with my mother and explain the strategic justifications for maintaining a forward-based tactical missile capability. I have nothing but sympathy for Mrs Sheehan’s loss and a good amount of sympathy for her political objections to our presence in Iraq. I strongly disagree with the arguments that teh President is in any sense obligated to meet with this woman and assuage her concerns over current military policy or that Mrs Sheehan should be exempt from criticism in the public sphere after she has chosen to make a public and prolonged demonstration with political intent. ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/57 "2005-08-12T22:30:42Z")
Does Hillary Clinton support or oppose the war at this time? What about John Kerry? If they oppose it, why don’t they march down to Crawford and tell the world? If they support it, don’t they also owe Cindy Sheehan an explanation as to why her son had to die? I honestly don’t see what’s so difficult to understand about this question. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/58 "2005-08-12T22:33:49Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > Here’s my point: why doesn’t Sheehan demand that Kerry and Hillary join her in Crawford, _admit_ that they were misled by this lying president and renounce their original votes? Can’t they admit that they made a mistake by trusting Bush? Shouldn’t they make known loudly and often that they now oppose this unjust war? Kerry and Hillary _are_ opposed to this war, right? They _would_ vote differently now, yes? Ted Kennedy was smart enough not to trust Bush with going to war…why were Hillary and Kerry so easily fooled? That is the context of the Plame scandal, the Downing Street memos, the OSP and many other items that have not been properly investigated to this day, in any case, both Kerry and Hillary concluded that thrusting the president was a good thing to do but regret what Bush did with that power: [http://www.panettainstitute.org/lib/04/hillary\_clinton.htm](http://www.panettainstitute.org/lib/04/hillary_clinton.htm) > [@](#): > > Leon Panetta: You voted for the Iraqi resolution. Do you have any regrets? > > Senator Clinton: I don’t regret voting to give the President authority. I regret the way he used the authority. > > If you go back and look at what he said he would do, he said he would go to the Security Council and get a resolution for a new inspection regime. He did that. > > I was in favor of that happening. > > Unfortunately, from that point on, I disagree with many of the assumptions and the actions that the administration then took, including the interruption of the inspection regime, including the poor planning for the post-military phase of the invasion and so much else. > > I think that one can debate whether or not the authority should have been given to the President, but, you know, based on my reading of what was then available and my experience during the Clinton administration, when, as you remember, the actions in Bosnia and Kosovo did not have U.N. Authority, did not have even congressional authority, but I thought were necessary. So so much of it depends upon the discretion and judgment of the President and I think President bush made a series of misjudgments following the granting of the authority. From many sources I have seen, the information given to congress was tainted, and so they voted with that information. **WHO** tainted that information is the discussion the right does not want to deal with. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/59 "2005-08-12T22:35:00Z")
On her previous meeting with Bush: both Bush and the war have lost a lot of support since last summer. I’m not sure why; it was as obvious then as it is now that there’s no end in sight and the reasoning behind the war was bogus. In any event, it’s the case. Maybe Sheehan is among those whose opposition has strengthened in the past year. Even if her case is less than 100% compelling, she has helped gather an anti-war crowd that neither Bush nor the media can totally ignore. That’s a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2005, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768/60 "2005-08-12T22:36:47Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > Here’s my point: why doesn’t Sheehan demand that Kerry and Hillary join her in Crawford, _admit_ that they were misled by this lying president and renounce their original votes? Can’t they admit that they made a mistake by trusting Bush? Shouldn’t they make known loudly and often that they now oppose this unjust war? Kerry and Hillary _are_ opposed to this war, right? They _would_ vote differently now, yes? Ted Kennedy was smart enough not to trust Bush with going to war…why were Hillary and Kerry so easily fooled? I think we’re in Spread The Blame Around mode. If Iraq was going well, does anyone believe for an instant that the Republicans would be insisting that the Democrats get their fair share of credit? You know, **Stephe96** , I think in your heart of hearts you believe that the war is lost. Otherwise why are you trying to give Hillary Clinton credit for it? And if you think the war is lost, then why are you criticizing a gold-star mother who wants Bush to bring the troops home? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-cheer-the-right-wing-smear-machine/316768.md?page=4)