# Let's compare Operation Barbarossa to the Migrant Caravan.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [October 31, 2018, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770 "2018-10-31T04:45:15Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/1 "2018-10-31T04:45:15Z")
Trump has characterized the [migrant caravan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_American_migrant_caravans) as an ‘invasion’.
If [Operation Barbarossa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa) wasn’t an invasion, there never was one.
Do I have to do much more than define my terms? Is there any way to justify labeling the caravan an invasion?
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### Author:  [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/2 "2018-10-31T05:00:48Z")
No Trump is using “invasion” to pander to his base and to try and get voters to turn out.
> [@](#):
>
> You may **only** apply for asylum i **f you are arriving in or already physically present in the United States**. To apply for asylum in the United States, you may ask for asylum **at a port-of-entry** (airport, seaport, or border crossing), or, if you are already in the United States, you may file Form I-589, Application for Asylum and for Withholding of Removal, at the appropriate Service Center. You may apply for asylum regardless of your immigration status, whether you are here legally or illegally.
[https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/asylum/faq/who-eligible-apply-asylum](https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/asylum/faq/who-eligible-apply-asylum)
(bolding mine)
it isn’t an “invasion” to comply with the requirements for an application of Asylum unless you think that only WASPs are allowed to immigrate.
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### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/3 "2018-10-31T05:47:45Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#):
>
> Trump has characterized the [migrant caravan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_American_migrant_caravans) as an ‘invasion’.
>
> If [Operation Barbarossa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa) wasn’t an invasion, there never was one.
>
> Do I have to do much more than define my terms? Is there any way to justify labeling the caravan an invasion?
… Did someone ever say Barbarossa wasn’t an invasion?
Not being snarky - has Trump ever said that?
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### Author:  [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/4 "2018-10-31T07:21:24Z")
> [@Velocity](#):
>
> … Did someone ever say Barbarossa wasn’t an invasion?
>
> Not being snarky - has Trump ever said that?
Yep, took .65 seconds and The Hill is pretty partisan republican. First of 10,000,000 results:
[https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/413624-trump-calls-migrant-caravan-an-invasion](https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/413624-trump-calls-migrant-caravan-an-invasion)
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### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/5 "2018-10-31T07:49:23Z")
> [@smithsb](#):
>
> Yep, took .65 seconds and The Hill is pretty partisan republican. First of 10,000,000 results:
> [https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/413624-trump-calls-migrant-caravan-an-invasion](https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/413624-trump-calls-migrant-caravan-an-invasion)
I asked if Trump - or anyone - said **Barbarossa wasn’t an invasion.** I didn’t ask if he called the migrant caravan an invasion.
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### Author:  [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/6 "2018-10-31T08:10:11Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#):
>
> Trump has characterized the [migrant caravan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_American_migrant_caravans) as an ‘invasion’.
>
> If [Operation Barbarossa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa) wasn’t an invasion, there never was one.
>
> Do I have to do much more than define my terms? Is there any way to justify labeling the caravan an invasion?
Your argument doesn’t make any sense to me. Are you contending that nothing can be rightly labeled an ‘invasion’ if it’s smaller in scale than Operation Barbarossa?
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### Author:  [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/7 "2018-10-31T08:27:39Z")
Barbarossa schmarbarossa, the caravan isn’t an invasion because when whatever is left of it by the time it gets to the border it’s going to come to a halt and ask for help. They’re not going to come storming across the Rio Grande brandishing the toddlers they’re bring with them as weapons. Calling it “an invasion” in any way, shape or from is ridiculous on its face.
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### Author:  [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/8 "2018-10-31T11:07:09Z")
Uh… The argument, as far as I’ve understood it here, goes something like this:
“Operation Barbarossa was an invasion. The migrant caravan is smaller in scope than Operation Barbarossa. Therefore the migrant caravan isn’t an invasion.”
Seems like a really bad argument; have I misunderstood something? (Yes, obviously it’s not an invasion, but this is still a silly argument.)
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### Author:  [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/9 "2018-10-31T12:13:53Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#):
>
> Is there any way to justify labeling the caravan an invasion?
Googling produced these definitions of **invasion** :
- an instance of invading a country or region with an armed force.
- an incursion by a large number of people or things into a place or sphere of activity.
- an unwelcome intrusion into another’s domain.
It appears that by #2 and #3, the caravan could be called an invasion.
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### Author:  [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/10 "2018-10-31T12:52:22Z")
> [@Xema](#):
>
> Googling produced these definitions of **invasion** :
>
> - an instance of invading a country or region with an armed force.
> - an incursion by a large number of people or things into a place or sphere of activity.
> - an unwelcome intrusion into another’s domain.
>
> It appears that by #2 and #3, the caravan could be called an invasion.
…reading over the shoulder is an “invasion” (of privacy) that clearly fits #3.
But this from the President of the United States?
> [@The Actual President of the United States of America](#):
>
> The Caravans are made up of some very tough fighters and people. Fought back hard and viciously against Mexico at Northern Border before breaking through. Mexican soldiers hurt, were unable, or unwilling to stop Caravan. Should stop them before they reach our Border, but won’t!
>
I don’t think the President is talking about a mere “unwelcome intrusion into another’s domain.” This alarmist nonsense: this complete and utter fabrication from the President is clearly talking about an invasion by an armed and deadly force.
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### Author:  [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/11 "2018-10-31T13:12:11Z")
Trump says a lot of dumb things. But 4,000 people driving to the boarder that most American wouldn’t want here. Sounds like it could meet some definition of an invasion.
This is non-existent on my Trump BS meter.
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### Author:  [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/12 "2018-10-31T13:25:02Z")
> [@spifflog](#):
>
> Trump says a lot of dumb things.
…understatement of the fucking century.
> [@](#):
>
> But 4,000 people driving to the boarder that most American wouldn’t want here. Sounds like it could meet some **definition of an invasion**.
This has already been established. It does fit “some definition of an invasion.” Pundits are choosing to conflate “some definition” with the “alarmist definition” for the purpose of generating outrage.
> [@](#):
>
> This is non-existent on my Trump BS meter.
Thanks for sharing.
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### Author:  [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/13 "2018-10-31T13:30:56Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#):
>
> …understatement of the fucking century.
>
> This has already been established. It does fit “some definition of an invasion.” Pundits are choosing to conflate “some definition” with the “alarmist definition” for the purpose of generating outrage.
>
> Thanks for sharing.
Kind of like Pundits and partisans everywhere …
Except here, that never happens here!
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/14 "2018-10-31T13:31:15Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#):
>
> …reading over the shoulder is an “invasion” (of privacy) that clearly fits #3.
>
> But this from the President of the United States?
>
> [https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1057612657665171457](https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1057612657665171457)
>
> I don’t think the President is talking about a mere “unwelcome intrusion into another’s domain.” This alarmist nonsense: this complete and utter fabrication from the President is clearly talking about an invasion by an armed and deadly force.
That quote, wrong as it is, does not meet definition #1, which is about an armed force. There is no mention of arms in your quote. You have read more into the quote than is there (eg, “deadly”) and then claimed that your reading was “clear”. You may choose, for whatever reason, to read it that way but it’s not “clear” that it should or must be read that way.
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### Author:  [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/15 "2018-10-31T13:31:51Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#):
>
> …understatement of the fucking century.
>
> This has already been established. It does fit “some definition of an invasion.” Pundits are choosing to conflate “some definition” with the “alarmist definition” for the purpose of generating outrage.
>
> Thanks for sharing.
I’m glad you’ve contributed your learned observations to the discussion as well.
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### Author:  [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/16 "2018-10-31T13:47:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#):
>
> That quote, wrong as it is, does not meet definition #1, which is about an armed force. There is no mention of arms in your quote. You have read more into the quote than is there (eg, “deadly”) and then claimed that your reading was “clear”. You may choose, for whatever reason, to read it that way but it’s not “clear” that it should or must be read that way.
…give me a fucking break. The President of the United States just blew the biggest fucking dog-whistle in the history of dog-whistles and you are accusing me of “reading more into the quote” than was actually there? I never claimed it fit definition #1. It is not unreasonable to assume that a group of “tough fighters” fighting back “viciously against Mexican soldiers” would be armed. We both know of course that this didn’t happen. We both know that what the President said was entirely fiction. So your quibbles don’t make any sense.
The President is gas-lighting. That’s my entire point.
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### Author:  [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/17 "2018-10-31T13:55:00Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#):
>
> Your argument doesn’t make any sense to me. Are you contending that nothing can be rightly labeled an ‘invasion’ if it’s smaller in scale than Operation Barbarossa?
Do they have tiny Messerschmidts?
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### Author:  [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/18 "2018-10-31T14:20:45Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#):
>
> Your argument doesn’t make any sense to me. Are you contending that nothing can be rightly labeled an ‘invasion’ if it’s smaller in scale than Operation Barbarossa?
Well, there are comparisons of scope and there are comparisons of kind. Here is how [some](https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/clay-waters/2018/10/30/ny-times-front-page-sees-trump-fed-conspiracies-appear-drive-attacks) discuss it:
> [@](#):
>
> With the kind of dark language usually reserved for true catastrophes like the Sept. 11 attacks, conservative commentators and politicians have led a concerted push to elevate the caravan as an issue. They have called it “an invasion,” “a national emergency,” “an illegal alien mob,” “an attack on America” and a crisis with implications that are “critical to the future of our civilization.”
And that is accompanied by the CiC sending 5000+ troops to the border to meet it. To me, all of this together suggests we are to believe that the migrant caravan is an invasion of a kind with Barbarossa, if obviously not in scale.
From the Barbarossa link, here is what they say about a civilization-ending invasion attempt:
> [@](#):
>
> Beginning in March 1941, Göring’s Green Folder laid out details for the disposal of the Soviet economy after conquest. The Hunger Plan outlined how the entire urban population of conquered territories was to be starved to death, thus creating an agricultural surplus to feed Germany and urban space for the German upper class.[80] Nazi policy aimed to destroy the Soviet Union as a political entity in accordance with the geopolitical Lebensraum ideals for the benefit of future generations of the “Nordic master race”
To me, it looks like a case of projection. Today’s GOP has fascistic, racist leanings and wants to stoke its base to prepare for a clash of civilizations, when really these people are just going to want to work.
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### Author:  [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/19 "2018-10-31T14:28:02Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#):
>
> Do they have tiny Messerschmidts?
Joke all you want, funnyman— but when you’re getting strafed by a dwarf flying a miniature Honduran Bf 109, _then_ we’ll see who’s laughing!
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/20 "2018-10-31T14:34:34Z")
Has everybody forgotten the invasion from fifty years ago when a bunch of wailing unwashed foreigners came to destroy American culture?
Oh wait, those were the Beatles.
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