# Let's compare Operation Barbarossa to the Migrant Caravan.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [October 31, 2018, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770 "2018-10-31T04:45:15Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/21 "2018-10-31T14:37:14Z")
The Wehrmacht did _not_ weaponize leprosy!
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/22 "2018-10-31T14:47:42Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#):
>
> Trump has characterized the [migrant caravan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_American_migrant_caravans) as an ‘invasion’.
>
> If [Operation Barbarossa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa) wasn’t an invasion, there never was one.
>
> Do I have to do much more than define my terms? Is there any way to justify labeling the caravan an invasion?
Not sure why this is in GD, but as others have said, there are several definitions of invasion that have nothing to do with armed force. And invasion of locusts doesn’t require tanks and planes, after all. That said, Trump is an idiot and he’s basically using the term invasion to fire up his base for the election. It’s a stupid use for the purpose of riling up the faithful about a few thousand refugees fleeing a terrible situation and hoping for sanctuary in the US, and he’s even more of a fucking asshole than usual (and that’s saying something) for trotting it out.
On my own Trump-BS-o-meter it gets a .00001 out of 10. On the ‘he’s a fucking asshole’ meter, it’s pretty close to the top of the scale (I had to re-calibrate it several times though as he kept blowing it up)
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/23 "2018-10-31T15:18:57Z")
> [@Velocity](#):
>
> I asked if Trump - or anyone - said **Barbarossa wasn’t an invasion.** I didn’t ask if he called the migrant caravan an invasion.
You’re missing the point of the thread.
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### Author:  [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/24 "2018-10-31T15:51:12Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#):
>
> … To me, all of this together suggests we are to believe that the migrant caravan is an invasion of a kind with Barbarossa, if obviously not in scale. …
I can’t really do anything about your perception, but in the OP you asked:
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#):
>
> … Is there any way to justify labeling the caravan an invasion?
The answer would appear to be ‘yes’. Do you agree?
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### Author:  [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/25 "2018-10-31T16:02:13Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#):
>
> You’re missing the point of the thread.
Possibly.
But he’s correcting an erroneous interpretation of his previous post, which seems a fully legitimate thing to do.
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### Author:  [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/26 "2018-10-31T16:08:33Z")
> [@XT](#):
>
> And invasion of locusts doesn’t require tanks and planes, after all.
Snipping your quote because I agree with a lot of other stuff you said, but it bears repeating: an invasion of soldiers, locusts, or whatever is commonly held to be an unwanted advance of a dangerous thing.
When people fleeing terrorism in their home countries are viewed to be threats, people who see it that way have lost their humanity. How ironic that so many of them assert that they are some stripe of Christians, supposedly with goodwill toward their fellow man.
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/27 "2018-10-31T16:13:08Z")
Trump’s being stupid. The individual’s choice is whether or not to share in that stupidity.
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### Author:  [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/28 "2018-10-31T16:13:49Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#):
>
> The answer would appear to be ‘yes’. Do you agree?
I do not. The invasion talk seems to have two thrusts, that the migrants are going to do an illegal border crossing, and that the whole thing is a Soros/Jewish conspiracy.
For the first, well, the caravan certainly isn’t Sneaking across the border- it isn’t sneaking anywhere. As I understand it, they are asylum seeking refugees. Applying for asylum, though perhaps unwelcome and en masse, does not, to me, meet any of the definitions of invasion presented up thread. How do you figure it does?
As for the Soros thing, puh-leeze.
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/29 "2018-10-31T16:22:09Z")
> [@Ravenman](#):
>
> Snipping your quote because I agree with a lot of other stuff you said, but it bears repeating: an invasion of soldiers, locusts, or whatever is commonly held to be an unwanted advance of a dangerous thing.
>
> When people fleeing terrorism in their home countries are viewed to be threats, people who see it that way have lost their humanity. How ironic that so many of them assert that they are some stripe of Christians, supposedly with goodwill toward their fellow man.
When I called in a company to look at my yard problem (basically, a bunch of local nasty weeds throughout my back yard), the guy said it was an ‘invasion of local vegetation’. I didn’t take this to mean I needed to start building machine gun nests and breaking out the barbed wire, nor did I see it as dangerous…just highly annoying (especially the goat head).
Also, just because you (and I, and most other rational people) don’t see this ‘invasion’ as ‘a dangerous thing’, doesn’t mean that everyone is on board with that. Certainly, there is a segment of the US population (probably a segment of EVERY human population) that would see a ‘large’ group of refugees headed towards their borders as ‘an unwanted advance’ and ‘a dangerous thing’, even if you include those as vital parts of the ‘invasion’ definition.
Like I said, I agree with you wrt the supposed danger here, and we both know exactly why Trump is doing and saying the things he’s saying, and we both know, and probably most in this thread know that these folks are desperate refugees fleeing the terrible conditions in their home countries as well as the regional disruptions that have been happening, and that they should be portrayed that way, not as some sort of ‘invasion’ force bent on…well, whatever loony horseshit Trump et al are trying to portray or whatever fevered imaginings are happening in folks swallowing this tripe.
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### Author:  [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/30 "2018-10-31T16:23:27Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#):
>
> The answer would appear to be ‘yes’. Do you agree?
Trump use of the word “invasion” in describing the caravan tosses proportion away.
> **[Trump is lying to scare voters. Migrant caravan families are desperate, not...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/10/24/dont-believe-donald-trump-migrant-caravan-not-terrorist-threat-column/1750612002/)**
>
> Families running for their lives are not a terrorist threat. And Trump's 'solutions,' like cutting off aid and deploying the military, will create chaos.
> [@](#):
>
> The migrant caravan is not a threat.
>
> This needs to be stated plainly and clearly, because President Donald Trump is working overtime to convince Americans of the opposite. Earlier this week, he tweeted that “criminals and unknown Middle Easterners are mixed” into the caravan, implying that those unknowns are terrorists. There is absolutely no evidence to this claim, and it has been contradicted by a senior counterterrorism official within his own administration.
By adopting Trump’s rhetoric, many conservatives are ignoring that his words are like gasoline tossed in to the fire:
> **[The conspiracy theory that led to the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting, explained](https://www.vox.com/2018/10/29/18037580/pittsburgh-shooter-anti-semitism-racist-jewish-caravan)**
>
> Xenophobic panic over the migrant caravan found a target: Jews who helped resettle refugees.
> [@](#):
>
> The conspiracy theory that led to the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting, explained.
>
> Xenophobic panic over the migrant caravan found a target: Jews who helped resettle refugees.
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/31 "2018-10-31T16:26:44Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#):
>
> Trump use of the word “invasion” in describing the caravan tosses proportion away.
>
> [Don't believe Donald Trump. Migrant caravan is not a terrorist threat.](https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2018/10/24/dont-believe-donald-trump-migrant-caravan-not-terrorist-threat-column/1750612002/)
> By adopting Trump’s rhetoric, many conservatives are ignoring that his words are like gasoline tossed in to the fire:
>
> [The conspiracy theory that led to the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting, explained - Vox](https://www.vox.com/2018/10/29/18037580/pittsburgh-shooter-anti-semitism-racist-jewish-caravan)
And this is how the OP should have couched his question, instead of the final line, which is what we are mainly discussing in this thread. Basically, the OP SHOULD have been about the wild rhetoric being used to spin the narrative, not stuff about Operation Barbarossa compared to the caravan and the definition of ‘invasion’.
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### Author:  [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/32 "2018-10-31T16:27:57Z")
> [@spifflog](#):
>
> Trump says a lot of dumb things. But 4,000 people driving to the boarder that most American wouldn’t want here. Sounds like it could meet some definition of an invasion.
>
> This is non-existent on my Trump BS meter.
The vast majority of those people will not get anywhere near the US border. The vast majority of the tiny fraction that do reach border will request asylum as they are legally entitled to do. The vast majority of those asylum claims will be denied and those people will not stay in the US.
A tiny fraction of a tiny fraction will be granted asylum and have a chance at life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in the US. Does this sound like it could meet some definition of invasion?
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### Author:  [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/33 "2018-10-31T16:29:44Z")
> [@XT](#):
>
> Also, just because you (and I, and most other rational people) don’t see this ‘invasion’ as ‘a dangerous thing’, doesn’t mean that everyone is on board with that. Certainly, there is a segment of the US population (probably a segment of EVERY human population) that would see a ‘large’ group of refugees headed towards their borders as ‘an unwanted advance’ and ‘a dangerous thing’, even if you include those as vital parts of the ‘invasion’ definition.
Further agreeing with you, we should continue to point out that in the minds of most of this group we’re talking about, the supposed “danger” of these people is really about their national origin and virtually nothing else.
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/34 "2018-10-31T16:46:53Z")
> [@Ravenman](#):
>
> Further agreeing with you, we should continue to point out that in the minds of most of this group we’re talking about, the supposed “danger” of these people is really about their national origin and virtually nothing else.
Absolutely. We should, as a nation, be helping these people. In addition, as a nation on the macro level and who has a vested interest in this region of the globe, we should be doing a lot more to bring stability and prosperity to the nations hardest hit by all of the chaos, much of it caused by freaking us. The whole give a man a fish or teach a man to fish thingy. Like I said in another thread, we really should be doing the Chinese equivalent (only less evil and debt-trappy) of belt and road throughout the entire region instead of this stupid anti-NAFTA stuff that actually undercuts Mexico when we need to be helping them to build up. The real way to stop migration caravans is to make conditions in the region such that folks don’t want to migrate (or, in this case, flee in terror and fear for their lives and their children’s lives). Not only would this help us on this one issue, but (twirls evil capitalist mustache) it will provide us with new sources for goods and services and markets for our goods as well as places we could be building manufacturing as well. It COULD be a win/win for us, instead of this stupid, asinine exercise by the idiotic red haired moron in chief.
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### Author:  [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/35 "2018-10-31T16:56:11Z")
Key distinction: invaders, whether Mongol hordes, locusts or whatever, never ask permission.
Asylum seekers, by definition, do ask permission.
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### Author:  [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/36 "2018-10-31T17:09:21Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#):
>
> Asylum seekers, by definition, do ask permission.
To what extent did those in the caravan ask & receive permission to enter Mexico at the Guatemala border? (I ask out of curiosity - I’m fairly confident at least some did.)
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### Author:  [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/37 "2018-10-31T17:20:43Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#):
>
> The vast majority of those people will not get anywhere near the US border. The vast majority of the tiny fraction that do reach border will request asylum as they are legally entitled to do. The vast majority of those asylum claims will be denied and those people will not stay in the US.
>
> A tiny fraction of a tiny fraction will be granted asylum and have a chance at life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in the US. Does this sound like it could meet some definition of invasion?
I don’t want to turn this into a whole immigration debate.
I’ll say that I disagree with most of your assumptions. Why do you think “the vast majority will not get anywhere near the US border?” It appears as though the numbers are increasing, not decreasing and the 4-10 thousand are now only 10 days away. You toss “the vast majority” around as if that’s fact and it’s not.
The big issue as it resonates at all with me, or the people whose opinion I care about, is that this can be viewed as yet another (albeit small) component of an invasion that has been going on for years at about 11.4 million.
But as I stated up thread, with all that is going on right now, this statement by Trump is the least of my concern.
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/38 "2018-10-31T17:35:09Z")
> [@XT](#):
>
> When I called in a company to look at my yard problem (basically, a bunch of local nasty weeds throughout my back yard), the guy said it was an ‘invasion of local vegetation’. I didn’t take this to mean I needed to start building machine gun nests and breaking out the barbed wire
As an American, however, that would be your god-given right.
#secondisnumberone
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### Author:  [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/39 "2018-10-31T17:37:42Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#):
>
> I do not. … Applying for asylum, though perhaps unwelcome and en masse, does not, to me, meet any of the definitions of invasion presented up thread. How do you figure it does? …
Keeping in mind that you asked if there is “any way to justify” labeling the caravan an invasion (not whether you personally would do so), here are some quotes from earlier in the thread:
> [@Xema](#):
>
> … It appears that by #2 and #3, the caravan could be called an invasion.
> [@spifflog](#):
>
> … 4,000 people driving to the boarder that most American wouldn’t want here. Sounds like it could meet some definition of an invasion. …
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#):
>
> … This has already been established. It does fit “some definition of an invasion.” …
If you can’t already see how it might (at least in some way) be justified, I doubt I could say anything more that would make that clear to you. Personally, I’m with Xema, spifflog, and Banquet Bear on this one: There are some definitions of “invasion” that this caravan meets.
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### Author:  [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2018, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/40 "2018-10-31T17:43:53Z")
[Another example of a foreign invasion that was bravely turned away by a strong President.](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/us-government-turned-away-thousands-jewish-refugees-fearing-they-were-nazi-spies-180957324/)
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