# Let's compare Operation Barbarossa to the Migrant Caravan. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 31, 2018, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770 "2018-10-31T04:45:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/41 "2018-10-31T17:48:55Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > I’ll say that I disagree with most of your assumptions. Why do you think “the vast majority will not get anywhere near the US border?” It appears as though the numbers are increasing, not decreasing and the 4-10 thousand are now only 10 days away. You toss “the vast majority” around as if that’s fact and it’s not. The caravan is in Oaxaca. They are 2100 miles from Tijuana, which is where they are headed. Their numbers are dwindling. Many have applied for asylum in Mexico and many have turned back already. I toss around “the vast majority” because that is what happened to all the previous caravans. Every single one. Caravans which have occurred once a year or more for about a decade. [Central American migrant caravan: What we know](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/10/31/migrant-caravan-what-we-know-monday-trump-military-troops-us-mexico-border/1829374002/) - USA Today Oct 31 2018 The caravan only looks like an invasion to people who believe a lot of false things about the caravan. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/42 "2018-10-31T17:55:16Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > If you can’t already see how it might (at least in some way) be justified, I doubt I could say anything more that would make that clear to you. Personally, I’m with Xema, spifflog, and Banquet Bear on this one: There are some definitions of “invasion” that this caravan meets. If we are going to go all nitpicky on this… Not really seeing it since for it to be an invasion they need to have actually invaded. They have not done so. Maybe they are planning to invade but that is not an invasion. Just like a forecast of rain does not mean it is raining. Further, unless they storm the border and disappear into the US, I cannot see it as any definition of “invasion” if they stop at the legal border crossing and ask for asylum. If we grant it to them then we are inviting them in so not invasion. If we deny them and send them packing they likewise have not invaded…by any definition. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/43 "2018-10-31T18:00:55Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Further, unless they storm the border and disappear into the US, I cannot see it as any definition of “invasion” if they stop at the legal border crossing and ask for asylum. If we grant it to them then we are inviting them in so not invasion. If we deny them and send them packing they likewise have not invaded…by any definition. Exactly this. Was the last caravan an invasion? The one before that? Any of them? Not really. What’s different about this one? There’s an election in six days. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/44 "2018-10-31T18:08:59Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Personally, I’m with Xema, spifflog, and Banquet Bear on this one: There are some definitions of “invasion” that this caravan meets. As pointed before already, for this particular issue, it is way out of proportion and used to inflame right wingers. Also out of proportion in relation to how normal people should react. It is really a dog-whistle. [https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/02/politics/donald-trump-daca-stolen/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/02/politics/donald-trump-daca-stolen/index.html) > [@](#): > > Donald Trump’s latest dog whistle on immigration is more like a scream. > > … > > The just-below-the-surface message is this: White people made this country great. Brown people are flooding in. They pose an existential threat to your daily life and what the future holds for your children. If you don’t fight back now, you may lose everything. > > Another example of this came in January, when Trump spoke of countries from which he’d like to see more immigration. He mentioned predominantly-white Norway and not “shithole countries” like those in Africa. The comments blew up a bipartisan effort to pass legislation to give special legal status to people in the DACA program. > > Appeals like these – raw, emotional and designed to be a punch in the gut – work in politics. Hope and change may be powerful motivators but they are nothing compared to fear and anxiety. Trump’s 2016 campaign is a testament to just how powerful making people scared can be. Despite large majorities of people believing he was not temperamentally suited to be President and lacked the qualifications for the job, they voted for him anyway – believing that we are under threat and that only Trump properly understood it. > > As Trump feels more and more free to act in ways consistent with his gut – and as Republicans continue to fret about the gap in base enthusiasm between their side and Democrats heading into the midterms this November – all of this seems purposeful. There’s no question that talk of invading hordes of immigrants rallies the Trump base. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/45 "2018-10-31T18:10:18Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > The caravan is in Oaxaca. They are 2100 miles from Tijuana, which is where they are headed. Their numbers are dwindling. Many have applied for asylum in Mexico and many have turned back already. > > I toss around “the vast majority” because that is what happened to all the previous caravans. Every single one. Caravans which have occurred once a year or more for about a decade. > > [Central American migrant caravan: What we know](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/10/31/migrant-caravan-what-we-know-monday-trump-military-troops-us-mexico-border/1829374002/) - USA Today Oct 31 2018 > > The caravan only looks like an invasion to people who believe a lot of false things about the caravan. **Lance Turbo** , did you even read the cite you posted? It said absolutely nothing about previous caravans numbers dwindling. But it did say this: “During a similar caravan in the spring, migrants who reached the U.S. border applied for asylum. NInety-three percent passed the first test on the path toward asylum, demonstrating they had a “credible fear” of returning home.” So your note about > [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > The vast majority of those people will not get anywhere near the US border. The vast majority of the tiny fraction that do reach border will request asylum as they are legally entitled to do. The vast majority of those asylum claims will be denied and those people will not stay in the US. appears to be, well, vastly incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/46 "2018-10-31T18:19:57Z")
No, actually, he is correct. There’s more than 100,000 applications for asylum in the United States each year, and usually something like 10% of those make it all the way through the system. > **[Refugees\_Asylees\_2016\_0.pdf](https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/Refugees_Asylees_2016_0.pdf)** > > 12.95 MB ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/47 "2018-10-31T18:23:07Z")
**spifflog** , three people from the April caravan have been granted asylum. Three. About 400 people requested asylum. At one point it had thousands of people. A fraction of the caravan made it to the border. An insignificant fraction of that fraction have been granted asylum. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/48 "2018-10-31T18:25:21Z")
More on numbers dwindling… [Migrant caravan getting smaller as it approaches U.S.](https://www.upi.com/Migrant-caravan-getting-smaller-as-it-approaches-US/9781540384711/) - UPI OCT. 24, 2018 > [@](#): > > The size of a migrant caravan headed for the United States has dwindled in size, Mexican officials said. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/49 "2018-10-31T18:38:38Z")
Also, it doesn’t really matter if the proportion of granted asylum requests is 99% or 1%. If they legally ask to come in and we legally grant them access, it’s not an invasion. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/50 "2018-10-31T19:09:40Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > To what extent did those in the caravan ask & receive permission to enter Mexico at the Guatemala border? (I ask out of curiosity - I’m fairly confident at least some did.) That is a good question. I recall there was some kind of kerfvl at the Mexican border, but I can’t say how it played out. I will look into it after work if no one beats me to it. Nonetheless, HD, I think others have answered for me. Asylum seekers simply aren’t invaders. To the point about the other 11 million people who entered the country illegally, I think that is a different case. I will point out that for every one of them, there was a willing American employer welcoming them with open arms. Members of Operation Barbarossa were not, in contrast, crossing the border to get jobs mowing Russians’ lawns but rather to literally kill them all. Pretty big difference IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/51 "2018-10-31T19:23:29Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > … Nonetheless, HD, I think others have answered for me. Asylum seekers simply aren’t invaders. … How do you know they are asylum seekers? I’m not at all confident that another “kerfuffle” isn’t going to be repeated / attempted at our border too. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/52 "2018-10-31T19:32:58Z")
As others have said, Trump is using the word ‘invasion’ (plus stating that US troops are needed to stop it) to get his base believing that an terrifying army is approaching the US border with intent to attack. It is typical of his appalling style - using lies to create fear and hatred. I saw a truly worrying TV interview with a Trump supporter recently: Interviewer: What is the most important issue in the upcoming elections? Voter: The invasion from Mexico! :smack::eek::mad: ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/53 "2018-10-31T19:38:08Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > How do you know they are asylum seekers? Well, by talking to them. There’s lots of people doing that, from journalists to the UN and so on. Why, what do you think they are doing? And do you realize that if they do make it across the border, the bulk of these migrants are surrendering to authorities in order to make their asylum claim? And again, that the vast majority of asylum claims do not result in it being granted? And for those claims that don’t work out, the applicants are deported? Seriously, what are you afraid of? ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/54 "2018-10-31T19:59:27Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > How do you know they are asylum seekers? History. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m not at all confident that another “kerfuffle” isn’t going to be repeated / attempted at our border too. That says a lot more about you than the caravan. Very few of them will reach our border and they will not try to force their way into our country. That’s a spooky Halloween story for scaring children. ‘There is no invasion. No one’s coming to get you. There’s nothing at all to worry about.’ Shepard Smith ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/55 "2018-10-31T20:03:00Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > … Seriously, what are you afraid of? I don’t feel particularly “afraid” of the caravan. Was there something in my post(s) that suggested to you that I was “afraid”? ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/56 "2018-10-31T20:23:44Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > The answer would appear to be ‘yes’. Do you agree? It can’t be an invasion until they actually invade – cross the border or at least attempt to do so. I guess you could call it an invasion of Mexico if you wished. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/57 "2018-10-31T20:32:19Z")
So it’s at most, what, 4000? On Ellis Island, that would have been a slower-than-average Tuesday. What happened to you, America? You’ve gone all chickenshit. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/58 "2018-10-31T21:04:56Z")
Now trump bumped it up to 15,000 troops, saying “Nobody’s coming in. We’re not allowing people to come in.” thus breaking international treaty and national law by disallowing people to apply for asylum. Yet people will still argue that this isn’t racially based xenophobia or at least a dog whistle to the alt-right. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/59 "2018-10-31T21:12:20Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t feel particularly “afraid” of the caravan. Was there something in my post(s) that suggested to you that I was “afraid”? Answer my question first. What do you think these people are doing? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/60 "2018-10-31T22:03:23Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Now trump bumped it up to 15,000 troops, saying “Nobody’s coming in. We’re not allowing people to come in.” thus breaking international treaty and national law by disallowing people to apply for asylum. Doesn’t this violate the Posse Comitatus Act? (really asking…I can not look it up right now) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770.md?page=4)