# Let's compare Operation Barbarossa to the Migrant Caravan. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 31, 2018, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770 "2018-10-31T04:45:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/61 "2018-10-31T22:06:13Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …give me a fucking break. The President of the United States just blew the biggest fucking dog-whistle in the history of dog-whistles and you are accusing me of “reading more into the quote” than was actually there? I never claimed it fit definition #1. It is not unreasonable to assume that a group of “tough fighters” fighting back “viciously against Mexican soldiers” would be armed. We both know of course that this didn’t happen. We both know that what the President said was entirely fiction. So your quibbles don’t make any sense. > > The President is gas-lighting. That’s my entire point. He’s not blowing dog whistles, he’s slapping his thighs and saying “Wer ist ein gunter Hund?” ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/62 "2018-10-31T22:07:12Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Answer my question first. What do you think these people are doing? Trying to get to into the United States. Now would you care to answer mine? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/63 "2018-10-31T22:08:03Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Doesn’t this violate the Posse Comitatus Act? (really asking…I can not look it up right now) Not if they are just show ponies, who will just lay down barb wire, deliver lunches or maybe call border patrol. But yes if they try to actively enforce the law it will violate the Posse Comitatus Act. Mostly it will just cost a ton of money and accomplish nothing but keeping military personal away from their families during the holidays. These individuals are looking to apply for asylum which legally has to happen in the country or at a port of entry. They already have “walls” there. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/64 "2018-10-31T22:09:28Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Trying to get to into the United States. Now would you care to answer mine? So you are anti-legal immigration? Applying for asylum is legal and must happen on US soil (including a boarder crossing or port of entry) Why are Hondurans uniquely disqualified from perusing legal immigration? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/65 "2018-10-31T22:15:53Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > So you are anti-legal immigration? Applying for asylum is legal and must happen on US soil (including a boarder crossing or port of entry) > > Why are Hondurans uniquely disqualified from perusing legal immigration? You make a lot of assumptions. To answer your slanted question, no, I don’t consider myself “anti-legal immigration”. And I don’t believe I’ve ever said anything remotely likely “Hondurans [are] uniquely disqualified from [pursuing] legal immigration”, so perhaps you should find someone who thinks that and pose your last question to them. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/66 "2018-10-31T22:16:14Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t feel particularly “afraid” of the caravan. Was there something in my post(s) that suggested to you that I was “afraid”? How about this? > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > How do you know they are asylum seekers? > > I’m not at all confident that another “kerfuffle” isn’t going to be repeated / attempted at our border too. Seems to me a true American-loving patriot should man up and go down there with their God given right to have M4’s and fend off the evil scourge that is coming to take away their jobs and way of life. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/67 "2018-10-31T22:20:03Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > How about this? … That’s a pitifully weak argument. I’m embarrassed for you. ‘There might be another kerfuffle’ != ‘I’m afraid’, for the easily confused. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/68 "2018-10-31T22:21:02Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You make a lot of assumptions. To answer your slanted question, no, I don’t consider myself “anti-legal immigration”. And I don’t believe I’ve ever said anything remotely likely “Hondurans [are] uniquely disqualified from [pursuing] legal immigration”, so perhaps you should find someone who thinks that and pose your last question to them. Because a group of people, who have stated that they are forming a carvan to apply for asylum are being discussed. You are arguing in favor of tactics that are in violation of these potential immigrants rights under federal law and federal law and international treaties. You are actively arguing to block people from legally applying for asylum which is legal immigration. Which means you are arguing against legal immigration, and you are focusing on a caravan that is from Honduras. I am simply reading in to your arguments on this thread. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/69 "2018-10-31T22:25:24Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > … You are arguing in favor of tactics that in violation of these potential immigrants rights under federal law. … Where did I do this? Please be specific. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > … You are actively arguing to block people from legally applying for asylum which is legal immigration. … Where did I do this? Please be specific. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > … I am simply reading in to your arguments on this thread. Good, that should make this a simple exercise for you: Which post(s) of mine were “arguing in favor of tactics that [are] in violation of these potential immigrants rights under federal law”? Which post(s) of mine were “actively arguing to block people from legally applying for asylum”? Again, please be specific. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/70 "2018-10-31T22:25:37Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Well, by talking to them. There’s lots of people doing that, from journalists to the UN and so on. > > Why, what do you think they are doing? And do you realize that if they do make it across the border, the bulk of these migrants are surrendering to authorities in order to make their asylum claim? And again, that the vast majority of asylum claims do not result in it being granted? And for those claims that don’t work out, the applicants are deported? Seriously, what are you afraid of? ISIS, smallpox and leprosy I would assume. Exactly what Trump told him to be afraid of. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/71 "2018-10-31T22:25:59Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > That’s a pitifully weak argument. I’m embarrassed for you. > > ‘There might be another kerfuffle’ != ‘I’m afraid’, for the easily confused. Fair enough. Let me expand my point. Every post you’ve ever made on this board makes you sound afraid. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/72 "2018-10-31T22:27:53Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > Fair enough. Let me expand my point. Every post you’ve ever made on this board makes you sound afraid. You are doing your side a disservice. Best to be quiet … ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2018, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/73 "2018-10-31T23:58:28Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t feel particularly “afraid” of the caravan. Was there something in my post(s) that suggested to you that I was “afraid”? Well, you seem to think the caravan constitutes an “invasion” and being invaded is scary. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/74 "2018-11-01T00:26:01Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Well, you seem to think the caravan constitutes an “invasion” and being invaded is scary. I thought, like a number of other posters in this thread, that some of the various definitions of “invasion” could reasonably be applied to the caravan. Nothing about that statement indicates that I’m “afraid”. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/75 "2018-11-01T00:28:12Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I thought, like a number of other posters in this thread, that some of the various definitions of “invasion” could reasonably be applied to the caravan. Nothing about that statement indicates that I’m “afraid”. Well the other possibility is that you feel like dehumanizing humanitarian immigration is appropriate then. “invasion” is almost universally a pejorative term. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/76 "2018-11-01T00:29:05Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > What happened to you, America? We’re approaching a historically high percentage of our population being foreign born ([Pretty graph](https://www.migrationpolicy.org/programs/data-hub/charts/immigrant-population-over-time)). Over 1 in 8 of us wasn’t born here. That’s in a country that continues to take about 1 of 5 immigrants worldwide; total immigration was even up in 2017 under Trump. A larger chunk of our population is foreign born than when we implemented pretty restrictive immigration policies to end the Ellis Island era. Bipartisan attempts to reform immigration policy in the last couple decades have failed to gain traction with the ideologues of either party. Without a prospect of reasoned and deliberate change from the political process, we’re looking at the percentage of foreign born continuing it’s strong upward trend. So now we’re to the freaking out phase where any given incident can be whipped up into a froth. That’s pretty normal historically. Europe’s struggling with anti-immigrant movements freaking out despite lower levels of foreign born in their population. We seem to take longer to get to the freak out stage about immigration than most countries. It’s not any prettier when we get there. This is America. It’s always been us. Nothing happened. Trump’s immigration rehtoric is a reasonably predictable response to the circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/77 "2018-11-01T00:50:38Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I thought, like a number of other posters in this thread, that some of the various definitions of “invasion” could reasonably be applied to the caravan. Nothing about that statement indicates that I’m “afraid”. Using the word “invasion” carries with it certain connotations. If not “afraid” for you then perhaps “worried” or “bothered” or “troubled” or “deeply concerned”. It certainly does not carry a connotation of “unconcerned” or “not bothered” or “meh”. Since you are being coy about it all we can only read into why you think “invasion” and the feelings that word invokes is the right word to use here. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/78 "2018-11-01T01:18:05Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Well the other possibility is that you feel like dehumanizing humanitarian immigration is appropriate then. > > “invasion” is almost universally a pejorative term. I asked you some questions in post #69. You ignored them and are back to slinging more accusations without any evidence. Is that just your shtick? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/79 "2018-11-01T01:30:19Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Using the word “invasion” carries with it certain connotations. If not “afraid” for you then perhaps “worried” or “bothered” or “troubled” or “deeply concerned”. It certainly does not carry a connotation of “unconcerned” or “not bothered” or “meh”. > > Since you are being coy about it all we can only read into why you think “invasion” and the feelings that word invokes is the right word to use here. I didn’t say it was “the right word to use here”. I responded to a thread that asked “Is there any way to justify labeling the caravan an invasion?” I can see how it meets some of the provided definitions, and said so, even though it wouldn’t be my preferred label. In another thread, [I said this about this same caravan](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21279932&postcount=9). I think you’d be well-served by reading it and I’d be interested in your thoughts after doing so. Does that sound like someone who is closer to “deeply concerned” or “unconcerned”? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/80 "2018-11-01T02:02:09Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Trying to get to into the United States. Which is what prospective asylees would be doing, so I don’t understand why you are casting doubt on this caravan being comprised of primarily such people. > [@](#): > > Now would you care to answer mine? You want to build a wall to keep people who are fleeing murder and war out of this country. It sounds like you are generally good with the idea of using the military to keep these tragic wretches away from us, too. There’s only a few explainations I can think of for such an opinion, and fear of them seems most likely. I honestly can’t understand why anyone should be bothered by people running for their lives across several thousand miles on foot, only to subject themselves to a legal process that is about as selective as an Ivy League college; with failure probably meaning being sent back to a possible death sentence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770.md?page=5)