# Let's compare Operation Barbarossa to the Migrant Caravan. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 31, 2018, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770 "2018-10-31T04:45:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/81 "2018-11-01T02:29:43Z")
And why are the Democrats suddenly pro-leprosy? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/82 "2018-11-01T02:37:57Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > We’re approaching a historically high percentage of our population being foreign born ([Pretty graph](https://www.migrationpolicy.org/programs/data-hub/charts/immigrant-population-over-time)). Over 1 in 8 of us wasn’t born here. That’s in a country that continues to take about 1 of 5 immigrants worldwide; total immigration was even up in 2017 under Trump. A larger chunk of our population is foreign born than when we implemented pretty restrictive immigration policies to end the Ellis Island era. Bipartisan attempts to reform immigration policy in the last couple decades have failed to gain traction with the ideologues of either party. Without a prospect of reasoned and deliberate change from the political process, we’re looking at the percentage of foreign born continuing it’s strong upward trend. > > So now we’re to the freaking out phase where any given incident can be whipped up into a froth. That’s pretty normal historically. Europe’s struggling with anti-immigrant movements freaking out despite lower levels of foreign born in their population. We seem to take longer to get to the freak out stage about immigration than most countries. It’s not any prettier when we get there. This is America. It’s always been us. Nothing happened. Trump’s immigration rehtoric is a reasonably predictable response to the circumstances. So your reputation that you were _ever_ an exceptional nation is a lie? Okay, I could buy that. For what it’s worth, I’ve been on a military response to an asylum-seeker inrush (Operation ELEMENT). It was all very Canadian and civilized as as far as I know, the only casualty was a white-tail deer that I personally kablammoed (I was, ironically, also in a caravan at the time - a Dodge Grand Caravan, to be precise). Stupid deer. It could have done literally _nothing_ and I would have blithely driven past, unaware of its existence and without playing an inadvertent and unwanted role in its demise. But I digress. Anyway, the chickenshittery of America is on the rise, and has been it seems for quite some time. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/83 "2018-11-01T02:39:30Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Which is what prospective asylees would be doing, so I don’t understand why you are casting doubt on this caravan being comprised of primarily such people. I think one of us is lost. I don’t think I’ve said anything about who comprises the caravan. You seem to think I was “casting doubt on this caravan being comprised of primarily such people”. Where did you get that impression? And who are “such people”? > [@Ravenman](#): > > You want to build a wall to keep people who are fleeing murder and war out of this country. It sounds like you are generally good with the idea of using the military to keep these tragic wretches away from us, too. I want (well, “wouldn’t particularly mind” is probably a better description) to build a wall to keep people from _illegally_ entering the country. I don’t expect that the wall would substantially impact people who are following the laws to request asylum. > [@Ravenman](#): > > … I honestly can’t understand why anyone should be bothered by people running for their lives across several thousand miles on foot, only to subject themselves to a legal process that is about as selective as an Ivy League college; with failure probably meaning being sent back to a possible death sentence. More imagined emotions attributed to me. Where did I say I was “bothered” by them? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/84 "2018-11-01T03:00:46Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I want (well, “wouldn’t particularly mind” is probably a better description) to build a wall to keep people from _illegally_ entering the country. I don’t expect that the wall would substantially impact people who are following the laws to request asylum. In the interest of literal precision, since that seems to have become particularly important of late, do you mean a literal actual physical wall across the U.S./Mexico border? If you’re using the term “wall” as a placeholder for “more aggressive and comprehensive border security policies”, fine, but an actual wall is just stupidly impractical and a person who believes it to be a feasible solution is deserving of having their intelligence questioned. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/85 "2018-11-01T03:10:50Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > In the interest of literal precision, since that seems to have become particularly important of late, do you mean a literal actual physical wall across the U.S./Mexico border? If you’re using the term “wall” as a placeholder for “more aggressive and comprehensive border security policies”, fine, but an actual wall is just stupidly impractical and a person who believes it to be a feasible solution is deserving of having their intelligence questioned. I support increased border security / enforcement. I was just riffing off of Ravenman’s “You want to build a wall” in that post, but in his defense I have at times, I’m sure, used some variations of “wall” as shorthand for “more aggressive and comprehensive border security policies”. I don’t think that must take the form of a literal wall 1,954 miles long, although I wouldn’t have any particular object if some sections of the border had walls built as part of a comprehensive enforcement strategy. Does that answer your question? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/86 "2018-11-01T03:18:00Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think one of us is lost. I don’t think I’ve said anything about who comprises the caravan. You seem to think I was “casting doubt on this caravan being comprised of primarily such people”. Where did you get that impression? You asked how anyone knows they are asylum seekers. Do you believe they are asylum seekers? If yes, then do your pedantic questions serve some other purpose than to advance this debate? > [@](#): > > . I don’t expect that the wall would substantially impact people who are following the laws to request asylum. To that end, if the Government tries to make it impossible for a person to assert the recognized right of a person, under U.S. and international law, to make an asylum claim, would you say the Government is acting improperly? > [@](#): > > More imagined emotions attributed to me. Where did I say I was “bothered” by them? Okay, great. You aren’t bothered by the caravan. Just cut to the chase and say you support letting them in the country so the people can make their asylum claim. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/87 "2018-11-01T03:59:45Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You asked how anyone knows they are asylum seekers. > > Do you believe they are asylum seekers? … I have very little solid information about what their plans are. I heard one little snippet of video where one of them, presumably a spokesperson of some sort, said they wanted to get to America. Just guessing, I suspect that a bunch of poor Hondurans know very little about the finer points of our immigration laws and probably don’t have a detailed plan like “enter border crossing point at San Ysidro and request form I-589”, and I doubt all of them are going to act in the same identical manner either. Some may try to sneak in, some may try to push through the gate like they did in Mexico, some may request form I-589 and fill it out and submit it, others may meet end up carrying drugs through the desert for a coyote. I doubt “asylum-seeker” will be the best label to describe _ALL_ of them by the time everything is said and done, but I do suspect it will accurately describe _SOME_ of them. > [@Ravenman](#): > > … To that end, if the Government tries to make it impossible for a person to assert the recognized right of a person, under U.S. and international law, to make an asylum claim, would you say the Government is acting improperly? … Sure, just taking your question at face value. I’m a little fuzzy on the details of what the [US.gov](http://US.gov) is accused of doing improperly, and “international law” is enforced about as well as “Somali law”, but far be it from me to disagree with a claim that the government is acting improperly. They do that shit all the time, in all sorts of ways. > [@Ravenman](#): > > … Okay, great. You aren’t bothered by the caravan. Just cut to the chase and say you support letting them in the country so the people can make their asylum claim. Again, I’m a bit fuzzy on the proper rules and procedure, but I don’t have any objection to it being followed in their case. If that means they all end up with asylum, fine. If that means they all get shipped back to Honduras, that’s fine with me too. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/88 "2018-11-01T04:04:25Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I didn’t say it was “the right word to use here”. I responded to a thread that asked “Is there any way to justify labeling the caravan an invasion?” I can see how it meets some of the provided definitions, and said so, even though it wouldn’t be my preferred label. In another thread, [I said this about this same caravan](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21279932&postcount=9). I think you’d be well-served by reading it and I’d be interested in your thoughts after doing so. Does that sound like someone who is closer to “deeply concerned” or “unconcerned”? You cannot expect me to find responses you made in other threads in order to determine what you are saying in this thread. In this thread you have defended the use of the word “invasion” to describe the caravan. In the other thread it sounds like you do not think it is an invasion (although not stated explicitly). So why, in this thread, have you not stated, clearly and succinctly, that “invasion” is hyperbolic of the right to describe what this caravan is? Why keep dancing around it? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/89 "2018-11-01T04:35:41Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > You cannot expect me to find responses you made in other threads in order to determine what you are saying in this thread. I don’t. I just expect you to read what I write in this one and not imagine things that I didn’t say. It doesn’t feel like I’m asking too much there. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > In this thread you have defended the use of the word “invasion” to describe the caravan. I’ve said I thought the caravan fell within some of the definitions supplied. To the extent that that’s “defend[ing]”, I feel comfortable knowing I have **Banquet Bear** as company. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > In the other thread it sounds like you do not think it is an invasion (although not stated explicitly). > > So why, in this thread, have you not stated, clearly and succinctly, that “invasion” is hyperbolic of the right to describe what this caravan is? Why keep dancing around it? Well, nobody asked me. The question in the OP was “Is there any way to justify labeling the caravan an invasion?”. I answered that and people started imagining I said things I had not (see post #69 for some good examples) and I had lots of work to do defending myself from false attributions. For the record, let me state that I don’t think “invasion” is the best word to describe the caravan of Honduran migrants. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/90 "2018-11-01T04:46:02Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I have very little solid information about what their plans are. So you’re arguing from a position of ignorance. > [@](#): > > Sure, just taking your question at face value. I’m a little fuzzy on the details of what the [US.gov](http://US.gov) is accused of doing improperly, and “international law” is enforced about as well as “Somali law”, but far be it from me to disagree with a claim that the government is acting improperly. They do that shit all the time, in all sorts of ways. The US is part of a treaty, and has statutes, both constituting the supreme law of the land, recognizing the right to file asylum claims. Recently the US has been closing ports of entry for the specific purpose of not allowing people to make such a claim. > [@](#): > > Again, I’m a bit fuzzy on the proper rules and procedure, but I don’t have any objection to it being followed in their case. If that means they all end up with asylum, fine. If that means they all get shipped back to Honduras, that’s fine with me too. This is inconsistent with your statement: “Arrest them and deport them back to Honduras. Build a wall to keep them out.” Did you change your mind? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/91 "2018-11-01T04:49:43Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t. I just expect you to read what I write in this one and not imagine things that I didn’t say. It doesn’t feel like I’m asking too much there. Yes…your favorite fallback. I have read many of your, “I never said that” dodges. So here is where you said that: > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > If you can’t already see how it might (at least in some way) be justified, I doubt I could say anything more that would make that clear to you. Personally, I’m with Xema, spifflog, and Banquet Bear on this one: There are some definitions of “invasion” that this caravan meets. So yeah, you are down with the use of “invasion”. Said so yourself. > [@](#): > > I’ve said I thought the caravan fell within some of the definitions supplied. To the extent that that’s “defend[ing]”, I feel comfortable knowing I have **Banquet Bear** as company. **Banquet Bear** can answer for himself. You can answer for yourself. I refuted your reasoning in post #42 in this thread which you never responded to and just carried on. > [@](#): > > Well, nobody asked me. The question in the OP was “Is there any way to justify labeling the caravan an invasion?”. I answered that and people started imagining I said things I had not (see post #69 for some good examples) and I had lots of work to do defending myself from false attributions. For the record, let me state that I don’t think “invasion” is the best word to describe the caravan of Honduran migrants. I refuted you in post #42. You ignored it. And if you do not think “invasion” is a good word to use then why don’t you condemn its use instead of carrying on here and defending it? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/92 "2018-11-01T05:00:37Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > So you’re arguing from a position of ignorance. … I don’t think I’m “arguing” anything at all, at least on that subject. You asked “Do you believe they are asylum seekers?” and I shared what I had heard. Is there some place they’ve posted their detailed plan of action so that I may review it? > [@Ravenman](#): > > Recently the US has been closing ports of entry for the specific purpose of not allowing people to make such a claim. Does that treaty specify numbers or hours of operations for ports of entry? > [@Ravenman](#): > > … This is inconsistent with your statement: “Arrest them and deport them back to Honduras. Build a wall to keep them out.” > > Did you change your mind? In this thread, the hypothetical under consideration is “if they do make it across the border, the bulk of these migrants are surrendering to authorities in order to make their asylum claim” (those were your words). In that other thread, the hypothetical under consideration was quite the opposite (“migrant who simply refused to stop walking forward”). Is it any surprise that I might prefer different responses to diametrically opposed actions? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/93 "2018-11-01T05:15:17Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Yes…your favorite fallback. I have read many of your, “I never said that” dodges. It’s not my favorite, nor is it a dodge. I wish very much that I didn’t almost-constantly have to refute things falsely attributed to me by patiently explaining to (often the same) Dopers over and over again that I didn’t say what they imagine I said. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > So here is where you said that: > > So yeah, you are down with the use of “invasion”. Said so yourself. Thank you for using an actual quotes of mine. See below for a further explanation. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > … I refuted your reasoning in post #42 in this thread which you never responded to and just carried on. > > I refuted you in post #42. You ignored it. I read it. There weren’t any questions to me and it seemed like a rather stupid argument that I didn’t feel needed to be responded to. I trusted that our readers would see it for what it was. YMMV. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > And if you do not think “invasion” is a good word to use then why don’t you condemn its use instead of carrying on here and defending it? I literally just posted “I don’t think “invasion” is the best word to describe the caravan of Honduran migrants.” Here is my view of this thread: there are basically two conversations going on at once. The first one, from the question posed in the OP, is whether the definition of “invasion” can be applied to the caravan. As the purely semantic exercise that I took that to be, I can see how some definitions appear to fit. I’m not alone in that view. The second one, a bit more nebulous, is whether we should call them that / is Trump an asshole for using the word “invasion” / why don’t we all stand around and condemn it / etc. On that matter, I personally, don’t have any great interest in using the label, but I’m not terribly offended by it either, at least not to the point that I feel the need to “condemn its use”, nor do I have such an inflated opinion of my own self-importance that I think it would matter. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/94 "2018-11-01T06:45:33Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It’s not my favorite, nor is it a dodge. I wish very much that I didn’t almost-constantly have to refute things falsely attributed to me by patiently explaining to (often the same) Dopers over and over again that I didn’t say what they imagine I said. What you do is exactly analogous to conservative dog whistles. “I didn’t say “X”” (when you clearly meant “X” without using those exact words). You are, by defending calling the caravan an “invasion”, using hyperbole to make the whole thing seem dangerous to Americans yet pretending you never said the caravan was actually dangerous to anyone. You are straddling the rhetorical fence and landing on whatever side suits you at the moment. > [@](#): > > I read it. There weren’t any questions to me and it seemed like a rather stupid argument that I didn’t feel needed to be responded to. I trusted that our readers would see it for what it was. YMMV. Wow…you neglected what you saw as a BS response because you thought other readers would take care of it for you? In short, you think the post was crap and let it be for others to deal with and yet no one did? You’ve been around long enough to know that never happens here. If my post was shit you and everyone else would pounce. I doubt you held off to spare my feelings. > [@](#): > > I literally just posted “I don’t think “invasion” is the best word to describe the caravan of Honduran migrants.” More fence sitting to try and have it both ways. > [@](#): > > Here is my view of this thread: there are basically two conversations going on at once. The first one, from the question posed in the OP, is whether the definition of “invasion” can be applied to the caravan. As the purely semantic exercise that I took that to be, I can see how some definitions appear to fit. I’m not alone in that view. I disposed of this argument in post #42. You never refuted it, supposedly in the hopes someone else would which no one did. So it stands that your point is done with. > [@](#): > > The second one, a bit more nebulous, is whether we should call them that / is Trump an asshole for using the word “invasion” / why don’t we all stand around and condemn it / etc. On that matter, I personally, don’t have any great interest in using the label, but I’m not terribly offended by it either, at least not to the point that I feel the need to “condemn its use”, nor do I have such an inflated opinion of my own self-importance that I think it would matter. This goes to the dog whistle aspect. You are using charged language and then shrugging your shoulders and suggesting you didn’t say anything bad. You are clearly not a dumb person so I submit you know exactly what you are doing and how disingenuous and misleading it is. The only thing I cannot figure out is why you persist with this. What is in it for you? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/95 "2018-11-01T07:27:34Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > … Wow…you neglected what you saw as a BS response because you thought other readers would take care of it for you? In short, you think the post was crap and let it be for others to deal with and yet no one did? > > You’ve been around long enough to know that never happens here. If my post was shit you and everyone else would pounce. I doubt you held off to spare my feelings. … I did not think anyone would “take care of it” or “deal with it”. I think they will _recognize_ it for the BS it is and move along, as I did. I was so confident that it was self-evidently stupid, that I didn’t feel the need to add anything to help them along to reach that conclusion. It may come as a surprise to you, but I ignore a whole bunch of posts that I think are dumb. I don’t have the patience (nor the time that would be required) to address the sheer volume of all the idiotic things posted on the SDMB on an individual basis. I have to triage. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > … This goes to the dog whistle aspect. You are using charged language and then shrugging your shoulders and suggesting you didn’t say anything bad. … I’m not using it. We’re discussing President Trump’s usage of it, and whether it is accurate or not. Some of us think it was technically accurate, but perhaps not the nicest thing to say. That’s not the same thing as “using charged language” ourselves. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > … What is in it for you? Fighting ignorance is a reward all on its own. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/96 "2018-11-01T10:12:04Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Does that answer your question? Yes, and your post 87 demonstrates that you can recognize the value of the distinction between _SOME_ and _ALL_, at least _SOME_ of the time. Now, do you feel Trump’s reaction to the caravan is a wise application of American military power? ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/97 "2018-11-01T12:05:14Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Absolutely. We should, as a nation, be helping these people. In addition, as a nation on the macro level and who has a vested interest in this region of the globe, we should be doing a lot more to bring stability and prosperity to the nations hardest hit by all of the chaos, much of it caused by freaking us. The whole give a man a fish or teach a man to fish thingy. Like I said in another thread, we really should be doing the Chinese equivalent (only less evil and debt-trappy) of belt and road throughout the entire region instead of this stupid anti-NAFTA stuff that actually undercuts Mexico when we need to be helping them to build up. The real way to stop migration caravans is to make conditions in the region such that folks don’t want to migrate (or, in this case, flee in terror and fear for their lives and their children’s lives). Not only would this help us on this one issue, but (twirls evil capitalist mustache) it will provide us with new sources for goods and services and markets for our goods as well as places we could be building manufacturing as well. It COULD be a win/win for us, instead of this stupid, asinine exercise by the idiotic red haired moron in chief. QFT This pretty much sums up my viewpoint on immigration, and it’s not one that I hear often enough. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/98 "2018-11-01T12:28:47Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > QFT > > This pretty much sums up my viewpoint on immigration, and it’s not one that I hear often enough. I’m wondering how zero-sum viewpoints reconcile immigrant-hatred. If the U.S. _loses_ by admitting refugees, how do their home countries correspondingly _gain_? ---
**Author:** ![LAZombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b38774/32.png) [@LAZombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LAZombie)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/99 "2018-11-01T12:50:59Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Like I said in another thread, we really should be doing the **Chinese equivalent (only less evil and debt-trappy)** of belt and road throughout the entire region instead of this stupid anti-NAFTA stuff that actually undercuts Mexico when we need to be helping them to build up. :dubious: This statement is brazenly racist. Please cite where the Chinese have used force to promote their endeavors. You act as if the Africans are naive mental midgets who cannot handle negotiating with the cunning Chinese. I believe Africans are smart, and if they do business with the Chinese, they understand what they are getting themselves into. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/100 "2018-11-01T13:07:15Z")
[pats **LAZombie** on the head] That’s nice, kid. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770.md?page=6)