# Let's compare Operation Barbarossa to the Migrant Caravan. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 31, 2018, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770 "2018-10-31T04:45:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/101 "2018-11-01T13:28:24Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You’re missing the point of the thread. There’s not a point, other than to be pissy about the word choices of the right wing and to generally gripe about them in general. I mean, NOBODY actually thinks it’s an invasion- it’s just a hyperbolic term for a bunch of people who may potentially show up and be unwanted when they get here. Big deal. Comparing it to the largest military invasion in history is absurd. It’s like comparing a fishing boat to a nuclear aircraft carrier and drawing conclusions about the boat. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/102 "2018-11-01T13:39:56Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I mean, NOBODY actually thinks it’s an invasion- it’s just a hyperbolic term for a bunch of people who may potentially show up and be unwanted when they get here. In my family, we call that a “reunion”. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/103 "2018-11-01T15:15:00Z")
> [@bump](#): > > There’s not a point, other than to be pissy about the word choices of the right wing and to generally gripe about them in general. > > I mean, NOBODY actually thinks it’s an invasion- it’s just a hyperbolic term for a bunch of people who may potentially show up and be unwanted when they get here. Big deal. As pointed before, I wish that nobody would think that, but that is not the case. > **[Here's what we know about the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting suspect](https://www.wsbtv.com/news/breaking-news/who-is-robert-bowers-alleged-pittsburgh-synagogue-shooter-1/861072562/)** > > Police have identified the man who opened fire during Saturday services at a Pittsburgh synagogue. as Robert Bowers, 46. Bowers is a Pittsburgh resident, according to our sister station WPXI.  > [@](#): > > Police have identified the man who opened fire during Saturday services at a Pittsburgh synagogue. as Robert Bowers, 46. Bowers is a Pittsburgh resident, according to our sister station WPXI. > > Eleven people were killed at Tree of Life synagogue in Squirrel Hill. Bowers was shot during a firefight with police, which left four officers shot. > [@](#): > > “HIAS likes to bring invaders in that kill our people,” Bowers wrote on Saturday morning. “Screw your optics, I’m going in. > [@bump](#): > > Comparing it to the largest military invasion in history is absurd. It’s like comparing a fishing boat to a nuclear aircraft carrier and drawing conclusions about the boat. I think the point of the OP is that Trump is cowardly and recklessly letting others know how “scary” this is, regardless if in reality is not as serious as history can tell us about properly called invasions. ---
**Author:** ![pmwgreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@pmwgreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pmwgreen)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/104 "2018-11-01T16:55:38Z")
I wish the OP picked a different example than Barbarossa. It’s awful close to Barbarous (which I don’t think applies to the caravan). Maybe the better comparison would be to The Grapes of Wrath and the westward migration of the tenant farmers in the dust bowl. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/105 "2018-11-01T17:42:02Z")
Just like with Barbarossa\*, this caravan is overreaching. Once they besiege Dallas, they’ll weaken in the winter snows and we’ll have 'em. \*It’s better compared to an Alien Invasion. The OP should have invoked Barbarella. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/106 "2018-11-01T17:47:41Z")
> [@pmwgreen](#): > > I wish the OP picked a different example than Barbarossa. It’s awful close to Barbarous (which I don’t think applies to the caravan). Maybe the better comparison would be to The Grapes of Wrath and the westward migration of the tenant farmers in the dust bowl. Huh? That was entirely internal. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > Just like with Barbarossa\*, this caravan is overreaching. > > Once they besiege Dallas, they’ll weaken in the winter snows and we’ll have 'em. > > \*It’s better compared to an Alien Invasion. The OP should have invoked Barbarella. I blame it on Rio. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/107 "2018-11-01T18:30:23Z")
I appreciate all the OP coaching, Lord knows I need it sometimes. The thread is about more than word choice though. For one, it’ll cost $36 million of tax dollars to pretend there is an immanent invasion coming and station troops to put on a show for the suckers. This, from the party of fiscal responsibility. I really don’t think Barbarossa is an absurd choice. Yeah, normally it would be, but the heads of the sucker class are being filled with the idea that this ‘invasion’ is a threat to our civilization. Oh really? What would that look like? Well, like Barbarossa. That involved dozens of divisions of tanks, soldiers, horses, the Luftwaffe, the whole nine. Soldiers all trained and armed by the German state. All organized under a single master plan intended to put an end to Russia and kill its people to replace them with Germans, under the command of generals who answered to Hitler himself, all of it fueled by anti-Jewish hysteria. Are there Any similarities between that and a crowd of desperate migrants fleeing for their lives From violence to seek asylum in the US? Well, there is the absurd conspiracy theory that George Soros and the Jews are behind it all in their quest to… destroy America? End white people? I’m not sure, but today in 2018 we have what could be characterized as a Nazi conspiracy theory, propagated by the majority party in power, substantiated with military maneuvers. I don’t know how to reach the suckers class. Pointing out the absurdity of the bullshit they are being fed seems like a good enough place to start. Now if you’ll excuse me, i need to work on my doomsday prep. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/108 "2018-11-01T18:56:20Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Huh? That was entirely internal. Same mindset, no? Americans have a lot of capacity to hate other Americans, as much or more than foreigners, it seems. “Okies” were likely as disparaged then as the people Trump would now really like to call “wetbacks”, if only the PC mobs weren’t so _uptight_ about it. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/109 "2018-11-01T19:18:27Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So it’s at most, what, 4000? On Ellis Island, that would have been a slower-than-average Tuesday. > > What happened to you, America? You’ve gone all chickenshit. Did I miss it, or did Canada offer to take in the caravan? Hey, that brings up a great idea. Instead of that giant oil pipeline Canada keeps pushing us to build, why not construct a huge migrant pipeline? We get jobs to build and maintain it, Canada gets an unending supply of cheap labor that would make U.S. corporations jealous. Win-win.\* _And just think of all the franchises McDonald’s_\* could sell to feed the migrants en route to Canada. \*\*I would’ve suggested Chipotle, but Central American migrants have better taste than that. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/110 "2018-11-01T19:24:31Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Did I miss it, or did Canada offer to take in the caravan? I’m pretty sure if they were approaching our territory, the only soldiers we’d deploy would be tasked to assemble and maintain emergency shelters while the civilian authorities sorted it out, which is exactly what we did last time a flood of asylum seekers came to us and I was one of those soldiers so basically, nice attempt at deflection, dude, but your country is still run by fuckups with throngs of suckup fuckups cheering them on. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/111 "2018-11-01T20:29:07Z")
Speaking of “invasion”: [https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/561032/](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/561032/) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2018, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/112 "2018-11-01T20:43:55Z")
Congratulations, you discovered that we have idiots, too. We’ve yet to put them in charge, though, nor do they have their own cable news channel. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/113 "2018-11-02T00:57:13Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So your reputation that you were _ever_ an exceptional nation is a lie? Okay, I could buy that. Reputations are simplistic stereotypes of far more complex and nuanced realities IMO. They’re more like branding. Even when there’s a significant kernel of truth, it’s possible to call all of them a lie. I’ve known a number of Canadians that are not particularly polite, if not downright rude. Shocking I know. I would say that in worldwide terms we are generally pretty exceptional about our willingness to accept high levels of immigration. Historically it takes more immigrants than in most coutnries before we see the backlash against immigration. We’re just at the point of the historical pattern where we probably shouldn’t act all that surprised. > [@](#): > > Anyway, the chickenshittery of America is on the rise, and has been it seems for quite some time. I’d argue that a good chunk of it is self inflicted. In reputation terms us silly Americans are good at ignoring the lessons of history until we repeat it and it punches us in the face. Canada is also one of the exceptional countries in the world for welcoming immigrants. You’re even at a much higher foreign born population right now. Around a quarter IIRC without going to look it up. Your immigration also does some things that might help and that we’ve considered but not been able to pass into law. Specifically giving preferences to things like education and language proficiency can help with assimilation and ensure higher economic contributions. We’ve considered dong something similar at times. Policy proposals paralleling Canada’s law, usually pick up a label that makes passage extremely difficult - racist. So we’ve just kept wandering along the same old path in the midst of one of the two largest immigration waves in our history. There was a high risk of running into anti-immigrant bigotry and chickenshittery at the end of that path. We ignored the risk. Collectively, we walked right into the punch. We’re Americans. Don’t need no stinkin’ history lessons!!! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/114 "2018-11-02T01:33:01Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > We’re just at the point of the historical pattern where we probably shouldn’t act all that surprised. Funny, though, that there seems to be a rise of fascism/nationalism/authoritarianism worldwide. Maybe it’s a cyclical thing since the bad memories of the _last_ global flirtation with fascism has fewer and fewer people around who still remember it. I imagine Putin’s biggest fear is his corpse hanging upside down like Mussolini’s. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2018, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/115 "2018-11-02T01:36:52Z")
[Leaked US Army documents assessing the caravan.](https://www.newsweek.com/trump-administration-migrant-caravan-border-troops-1196855) “Based on historic trends, it is assessed that only a small percentage of the migrants will likely reach the border.” “Most likely course of action: the caravan dwindles as it nears US; limited Transnational Criminal Organization exploitation and no terrorist infiltration…” They actually seem more concerned with dipshit Minutemen and the like… “Estimated 200 unregulated armed militia members currently operating along the southwest border. Reported incidents of unregulated militias stealing National Guard equipment during deployments. They operate under the guise of citizen patrols supporting Customs and Border Protection primarily between Points of Entry.” ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2018, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/116 "2018-11-03T14:38:40Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > They actually seem more concerned with dipshit Minutemen and the like… Well, the so-called militia is on this side of the border running around with guns and stealing their stuff. The migrant train are on the other side of an international border crying for help. Unless Donny Two-scoops orders some kind of relief operation (ha!) and Mexico gives the okay, the military aren’t going to be able to do a thing either for or about them. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/117 "2018-11-09T17:47:53Z")
Wait, I haven’t seen anything about this claim: “Fought back hard and viciously against Mexico at Northern Border before breaking through. Mexican soldiers hurt…” Did ANY of that happen? The rest of the thread implies the caravan hasn’t reached the “Northern Border” in the first place. But was there fighting? Were Mexican soldiers hurt? Because that seems vastly more refutable than parsing the definition of “invasion.” ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/118 "2018-11-09T19:18:57Z")
Um… I think that was the Northern border of Guatemala. Now this… [Fox News barely mentions caravan first morning after midterms](https://www.vox.com/2018/11/7/18071658/fox-news-caravan-midterm-elections) > [@](#): > > The caravan received heavy coverage on Fox & Friends, where it was portrayed as “an invasion” that Democrats weren’t doing enough to stop. According to transcripts, the caravan was mentioned 19 times on Friday’s edition of the show, 10 times on Monday, and nine times on Tuesday. Fox News has even embedded a reporter with the caravan to provide updates about its progress. > > Yet on Wednesday’s edition of Fox & Friends, it was mentioned just once in passing. The caravan was never a threat. Talk of the caravan was a get out the vote effort and nothing more. The immigration pants pissers got played. Of course we’re still going to spend around a quarter **B** illion dollars to send the army down there to watch the tumbleweeds. A quarter billion dollar taxpayer funded Republican get out the vote effort. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/119 "2018-11-09T19:26:18Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I mean, NOBODY actually thinks it’s an invasion- it’s just a hyperbolic term for a bunch of people who may potentially show up and be unwanted when they get here. Big deal. [From another thread on this board:](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21287852&postcount=118) > [@Trump and the right's immigration stances are pushing the left towards open borders.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-and-the-rights-immigration-stances-are-pushing-the-left-towards-open-borders/823407/118): > > The left has lost its mind on this issue. 14,000 people. That’s about the number of men used in Pickett’s Charge. It is an absolute invasion. To say that they can all just walk in this country is one of the main reasons that Trump got elected to stop. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2018, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770/120 "2018-11-09T20:08:51Z")
Yeah, Pickett’s Charge was by an armed and uniformed army regiment as part of a declared war. Nice try. Isn’t it illegal to use the military like this? One the one hand, Bush got away with lying to start his Iraq adventure. OTOH, this situation seems far more transparent. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-compare-operation-barbarossa-to-the-migrant-caravan/823770.md?page=7)