# Let's debate affirmative action **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 20, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818 "2014-02-20T20:35:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/201 "2014-02-26T03:49:12Z")
We must have race-based AA quotas for blacks if we are to have a society worth living in. Without it, even adjusted for family income/socioeconomic opportunity, the self-identified ethnicity of “black” would be barely represented in higher education–especially at more competitive schools–and significantly reduced in many work fields that require any sort of competency exam. We cannot have a society in which an entire self-identified group is woefully underrepresented. It is far preferable to make accommodation for differences. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/202 "2014-02-26T13:58:18Z")
**ENOUGH!** No more accusations of “running away” from the discussion. Such claims serve no purpose except to antagonize other posters. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/203 "2014-02-26T14:12:10Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > We must have race-based AA quotas for blacks if we are to have a society worth living in. You are committing the same fallacy of false dilemma that other posters have used. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/204 "2014-02-26T14:18:56Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You are obviously afflicted by the blind spot that many white males have to white privilege. Your racist comments are still offensive. > [@](#): > > You go back and forth from being against any sort of racial preference as racist and then you say that you are OK with AA just not quotas. No, I simply clarified. AA is a big word. It includes policies that don’t involve any preferences at all, such as efforts to assure that qualified black candidates apply. > [@](#): > > I don’t think you know what you believe, you just have a visceral objection to AA because you think it discriminates against you Of course it discriminates against me. By definition! How can you say it doesn’t? > [@](#): > > and you’re just not used the the world working in a way where your bread always falls butter side up. You know nothing about me or what my life has been like or my family background. Nothing. You are assuming it based on my race, which is racial prejudice. > [@](#): > > I don’t know if you have really have trouble conprehending what you are reading or if you are trying to draw a foul but you asked if I would follow the one drop rule in conferring racial preferences and I said that Jim Crow used the one drop rule so it would be appropriate to use the same rule when determining who should be a beneficiary of that racial preference. I understood you just fine. You want to follow the conventions of the racists whose past actions you want to remedy. That comment was meant to mock you, but you actually agreed with it. Stunning. > [@](#): > > Or are you so blinded by your perspective that read what I said as “lets do onto others as they have done unto us?” Explain how it’s not just that. > [@](#): > > Which do you think we should do first? Eliminate the racial advantage that whites enjoy over Asians or eliminate the racial preference that AA afford to blacks? Why must one be first? > [@](#): > > IOW, you’re running away and dodging questions. Go ahead run away. I hope you find solace in the world that you have constructed for yourself where you are right about thing you don’t even understand. It’s really sad that you can’t think of a way to fight racism without appealing to it and using the same logic and tactics that racists once did. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/205 "2014-02-26T14:55:03Z")
So the one-drop rule should apply to AA, according to Damuri Ajashi. That means if a person who is white in every sense of the word can find just one black ancestor, he or she gets all the benefits of AA as if he or she were of 100% African descent. Does that make sense? So I ask again - how does one handle biracial/multiracial people with AA? Is it proportional? If you are 1/4th black, are you 1/4th disadvantaged? Do you get 1/4th of the preferences somehow? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/206 "2014-02-26T15:38:39Z")
I answer, again, that it would be swell if you would acknowledge that since the affirmative action policies at issue are voluntary efforts by universities, “one” handles it however “one” wants, including not at all. You keep talking about it backward, as though the absence of an absolute ban on affirmative action measures is equivalent to a mandate that everyone everywhere _must_ have a particular flavor of affirmative action in effect. Oh should we this? Should we not that? Why do we have to this, why can’t we just that? This is not reflective of actual affirmative action. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/207 "2014-02-26T15:44:51Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > I answer, again, that it would be swell if you would acknowledge that since the affirmative action policies at issue are voluntary efforts by universities, “one” handles it however “one” wants, including not at all. You keep talking about it backward, as though the absence of an absolute ban on affirmative action measures is equivalent to a mandate that everyone everywhere _must_ have a particular flavor of affirmative action in effect. Oh should we this? Should we not that? Why do we have to this, why can’t we just that? This is not reflective of actual affirmative action. Why does this matter to this discussion? I’m talking in general terms about AA. I find any racial preference to be unfair. No matter what new preference you add, you’ll be creating a new injustice to go along with it. The one-drop rule is just one example. It came from my question about who you handle biracial people, which was just one way of exploring just how absurd the idea that one can simply divide a group of individuals into two types and judge them on that is doomed to fail. Racial preferences simply assume that one has a disadvantage or advantage, at a certain fixed level, due to race. That’s false. Also, such policies ignore the many other sources of disadvantage in life. These are the reasons that racism and racial prejudice are wrong in the first place. One cannot use injustice to fight injustice. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/208 "2014-02-26T15:47:52Z")
Why does the answer to your question matter to the discussion? That’s a great point, actually. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/209 "2014-02-26T15:55:29Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Why does the answer to your question matter to the discussion? > > That’s a great point, actually. Because it points out the absurdity of trying to fit individuals into neat racial categories and judging them by those categories. What should person with a black dad and white mom say his or her race is on the college application form? Or someone who is 1/4th black? Should a college ask for fractions? If not, a biracial person would either get no preferences despite their blackness, or full preference despite their whiteness. That’s not fair either way. Then once you get through all that, you wonder why only race matters. There are so many other sources of disadvantage, past or present, they can’t be accomodated. Yet to ignore them and focus only on one is unfair. And of course, these are only potential sources of disadvantage or advantage. There are plenty of desperately poor, uneducated white people out there, and even a few rich black people, but those don’t matter. Judging people by race is a failure, which is why it is wrong and doomed to fail. It doesn’t matter whether you mean well when you do it. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/210 "2014-02-26T16:10:17Z")
Yes, so you keep saying; should should should. The point is that you don’t need to determine whether or not **Damuri** subscribes to the one drop rule to reiterate the blithe assertions about how racism is racism, and how the only way to fix a hole in the wall is to forget hammers exist. That’s where this thread began. _You_ don’t need to have a comprehensive scheme for how _you_ are going to resolve the mixed-race dilemma when you’re forced to give black candidates a preference at your university, because that shit ain’t happening. What this thread is about is claiming that other universities who want to shouldn’t be _allowed_ to. And the “absurdity” of the perfectly raceless candidate is irrelevant to that discussion. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/211 "2014-02-26T16:12:40Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > _You_ don’t need to have a comprehensive scheme for how _you_ are going to resolve the mixed-race dilemma when you’re forced to give black candidates a preference at your university, because that shit ain’t happening. What this thread is about is claiming that other universities who want to shouldn’t be _allowed_ to. Yes. We all understand that. It’s not at all relevant. I’m arguing that they shouldn’t be allowed to. Can we continue? > [@](#): > > And the “absurdity” of the perfectly raceless candidate is irrelevant to that discussion. No it’s not. It’s essential to it. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/212 "2014-02-26T16:18:04Z")
Continue with what? You think it’s racist. Racism’s bad. The answer to your question “how does one handle biracial/multiracial people with AA” is still “however one believes his or her educational mission will best be served, because that’s how voluntary admissions policies work.” ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/213 "2014-02-26T16:28:33Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Continue with what? You think it’s racist. Racism’s bad. Glad that part got through. > [@](#): > > The answer to your question “how does one handle biracial/multiracial people with AA” is still “however one believes his or her educational mission will best be served, because that’s how voluntary admissions policies work.” That’s not an answer, that’s circular reasoning. A whites-only college in the South in 1955 could have given that answer, verbatim, to justify its racial policies too. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/214 "2014-02-26T16:46:46Z")
Well, not as a justification, because nobody asked about justification, but yes, they could have said that in response to “how do you do this.” And I would have been prepared, had it been necessary to do so, to make an argument why that policy was _actually wrong_ by virtue of its direct and immediate connection to real violence against real human beings. Listen, it’s not anyone else’s fault that your cavilling and grandstanding hasn’t amounted to anything more than this by now, but that’s the answer to your objection. The fact that race is fluid and contextually defined is not a problem for the implementation of an affirmative action policy. It’s just not, and no matter what the answer is to your technical concerns, it’s not advancing the ball. Everyone - literally everyone who has commented on it - has already agreed that affirmative action is racial discrimination. That was asserted in the first post and never contradicted. So what? In seventy-five posts or less, what else you got? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/215 "2014-02-26T16:55:56Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Well, not as a justification, because nobody asked about justification, but yes, they could have said that in response to “how do you do this.” And I would have been prepared, had it been necessary to do so, to make an argument why that policy was _actually wrong_ by virtue of its direct and immediate connection to real violence against real human beings. And I’m making an argument against a policy now. > [@](#): > > Listen, it’s not anyone else’s fault that your cavilling and grandstanding hasn’t amounted to anything more than this by now, but that’s the answer to your objection. It’s a really bad answer. > [@](#): > > The fact that race is fluid and contextually defined is not a problem for the implementation of an affirmative action policy. It’s just not, “It’s just not” is about as lame an answer as your other ones. Try explaining why it’s not. > [@](#): > > Everyone - literally everyone who has commented on it - has already agreed that affirmative action is racial discrimination. That was asserted in the first post and never contradicted. So what? In seventy-five posts or less, what else you got? Racial discrimination is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/216 "2014-02-26T17:02:41Z")
One of many reasons it’s not a problem is that, taking a page from the EEOC and other federal agencies, many institutions now simply include both an option for “Bi- or Multi-Racial” and an “Other” category for disclosures of race and ethnicity, and record them thusly. So easy! Not a problem. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/217 "2014-02-26T17:06:43Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > One of many reasons it’s not a problem is that, taking a page from the EEOC and other federal agencies, many institutions now simply include both an option for “Bi- or Multi-Racial” and an “Other” category for disclosures of race and ethnicity, and record them thusly. So easy! Not a problem. But that’s just for data. So what? How does one treat such a student in an AA program? What preferences does one give such a person who checks that box? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/218 "2014-02-26T17:08:15Z")
What preferences would one _like_ to give, **lance**? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/219 "2014-02-26T17:10:39Z")
At least for admissions in colleges that do not conduct admission interviews, there’s a simple solution to Affirmative Action racism: mark “African American” as your race on the application, no matter what race you are. Who’s to say different? Maybe you have a story in your family that your great-grandma on father’s side was black… ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/220 "2014-02-26T17:13:39Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > What preferences would one _like_ to give, **lance**? Why are you asking me? I asked you. You are the one defending AA policies, not me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818.md?page=12)