# Let's debate affirmative action **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 20, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818 "2014-02-20T20:35:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/321 "2014-03-14T16:47:54Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > That’s just a tautology. Affirmative action is defined by race consciousness. Yes, that’s the tautology that supporters of AA have created, and often refuse to confront. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/322 "2014-03-14T16:50:10Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And that is the fundamental crux of the problem. You can’t end racial discrimination until you end racial discrimination. A system that is designed to make us more race conscious rather than less is one in which racism will persist and possibly even grow. Yes, this thread has demonstrated that. If one who claims to want to end racial prejudice cannot make an argument without appeal to someone’s race (a classic circumstantial ad hominem) then one has failed miserably to do what one claims to want. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/323 "2014-03-15T03:06:25Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > No, women today have limited access to many occupations today because they have limited access to them today. > > You are still confused about my point. This is not about the history of discrimination. Yes, some past attitudes and standards have been carried into today. I am not confused and you have made my point. Claiming that attitudes and standards “have been carried into today” while denying that it is a historical trend with historical consequences is a bit odd. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > This is about claims that someone can have a disadvantage - not due to current discrimination, but due to past discrimination against his/her ancestors. For instance, a black man can say he is poor because his ancestors were poor and weren’t able to pass wealth, skills or education to him. The legacy of slavery, etc. And you want to pretend that a woman, today, carries no burden of a lack of role models, a lack of mentoring, and family attitudes that were generational? When a woman is told that “women do not make good CEOs,” you are saying that that attitude was created at the moment that it was spoken and not the expression of an idea that has permeated much of business for several hundred years? > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > A woman can’t say that, for reasons I’ve explained and I think you understand. Your reasons appear to be lacking in foundation, (or have not actually been explained, despite your protest). I do not understand how you can make the claim that you are making, as if history plays no role in current discrimination and achievement. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I am not claiming that there is no current discrimination. I am not claiming that current discrimination wasn’t inherited, culturally, from our past. I’m saying a woman can’t say “my ancestors suffered from sex discrimination and that’s the reason I’m disadvantaged as a woman.” I realize that you are saying it. I have no idea how you can believe it. I particularly do not understand how you can believe it when your second and third quoted sentences directly contradict each other. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/324 "2014-03-15T17:15:21Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > When a woman is told that “women do not make good CEOs,” you are saying that that attitude was created at the moment that it was spoken and not the expression of an idea that has permeated much of business for several hundred years? Well, blacks don’t make good quarterbacks and Asians don’t make good leaders. The best leaders are straight white males. Or at least that is most people’s subconsious reaction. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2014, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/325 "2014-03-15T20:47:06Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I am not confused and you have made my point. Claiming that attitudes and standards “have been carried into today” while denying that it is a historical trend with historical consequences is a bit odd. Tom, I didn’t deny this. I have repeatedly explained otherwise. You’re not getting it. > [@](#): > > And you want to pretend that a woman, today, carries no burden of a lack of role models, a lack of mentoring, and family attitudes that were generational? No, I don’t. I’m done trying to explain this. It wasn’t important enough in the first place. I surprised I had to explain it this much, and obviously I’m not getting anywhere. Never mind. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/326 "2014-03-17T03:38:40Z")
The attempt to reinstate AA in college admissions in California has been temporarily stopped by the Asian-American community: > **[Affirmative action proposal for California universities runs into...](https://www.mercurynews.com/2014/03/13/affirmative-action-proposal-for-california-universities-runs-into-asian-american-opposition/)** > > Affirmative action proposal for California universities runs into Asian-American opposition Here’s the upsetting part though: \*\*But Der said any debate that pits ethnic minorities against one another serves no one. \*\* Why, is a debate always supposed to be whites vs. minorities? Asians are just supposed to grin and bear it for “the team”? If you don’t want to pit minorities against each other, then don’t try to pass policies that pit minorities against each other. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/327 "2014-03-17T04:29:44Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Well, blacks don’t make good quarterbacks and Asians don’t make good leaders. The best leaders are straight white males. Or at least that is most people’s subconsious reaction. The most successful demographic in human history is the white male; I’m presuming most of them were “straight.” ---
**Author:** ![nevadaexile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb8c5e/32.png) [@nevadaexile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nevadaexile)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/328 "2014-03-17T11:34:12Z")
Oddly, the opponents of affirmative action never seem to acknowledge that White incompetent males exist or that they are recipients of the ultimate affirmative action: their gender and skin color. For a group that doesn’t even have a majority in the United States (the largest single group in this country are White females), they hold the majority of the reins of power. How this would be possible WITHOUT their being recipients of “special treatment” is never made clear. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/329 "2014-03-17T11:41:48Z")
Ah, so there should be a stigma attached to all the white males who made billions of dollars founding Facebook, Oracle, Microsoft, Apple, Amazon and um, virtually every other Silicon Valley success story. And as far as I can tell, none of those guys had anything handed to them other than a fairly normal upbringing. Obviously, they received special treatment. I won’t deny white privilege exists, but it does not explain everything. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/330 "2014-03-17T20:49:01Z")
> [@Mince](#): > > The most successful demographic in human history is the white male; I’m presuming most of them were “straight.” In human history? Really? So what do you think that means? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/331 "2014-03-17T20:52:21Z")
> [@Mince](#): > > The most successful demographic in human history is the white male; I’m presuming most of them were “straight.” > [@adaher](#): > > Ah, so there should be a stigma attached to all the white males who made billions of dollars founding Facebook, Oracle, Microsoft, Apple, Amazon and um, virtually every other Silicon Valley success story. > > And as far as I can tell, none of those guys had anything handed to them other than a fairly normal upbringing. Obviously, they received special treatment. > > I won’t deny white privilege exists, but it does not explain everything. Of course not but if you discount Jews and eliminated white privilege, are you sure that we would have approximately the same level of lopsided white male success that we have today? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/332 "2014-03-17T21:06:42Z")
No. We’ll probably know what the “natural” level is once some minorities stop catching up. As long as they are making progress we can hope that they continue to make progress until equality in many fields. Although of course due to cultural preferences there will always be some areas where different groups excel more than other groups. There just aren’t that many female computer geeks who have lived and breathed the stuff since they were children, so we can expect there will never be very many female Silicon Valley entrepeneurs compared to males. Silicon Valley is going out of its way to promote female execs, but female founders are very rare. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/333 "2014-03-18T03:10:16Z")
> [@Mince](#): > > The most successful demographic in human history is the white male; I’m presuming most of them were “straight.” In history? Really? When did history start as far as you’re concerned? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/334 "2014-03-18T12:34:55Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I won’t deny white privilege exists, but it does not explain everything. And that’s the problem with using “white privilege” (or any other race-based doctrine) to make policy - you can’t tell the difference. It doesn’t leave any room for explaining what people have or do based on either the hundreds of other possible advantages or disadvantages in life, nor the legitimate work or talent people put into them. It just labels everyone as black or white and walks away as if it were all so simple. Just like any other racist policy, like Jim Crow. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/335 "2014-03-18T12:38:17Z")
Exactly. And that’s why if you’re from wealth and a minority, you get a double bonus, while if you’re poor and white, you get a double penalty. And if you’re poor and Asia, forget about it, might as well just go back home. The deck is stacked against you on all fronts. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/336 "2014-03-18T12:40:37Z")
> [@nevadaexile](#): > > Oddly, the opponents of affirmative action never seem to acknowledge that White incompetent males exist or that they are recipients of the ultimate affirmative action: their gender and skin color. Well, no, that’s false. I, for one, acknowledge that being white and male can be an advantage (whether due to current discrimination or the legacy of past discrimination). My criticism of AA is this: by using an irrelevant factor, it is just as evil and unfair as any other racism or sexism and it ignores the many other sources of disadvantage or advantage that exist. People should be treated as individuals, not members of a group. Pretty simple stuff. Judging people by their race or sex rather than as people is wrong, even when it means well. > [@](#): > > For a group that doesn’t even have a majority in the United States (the largest single group in this country are White females), they hold the majority of the reins of power. How this would be possible WITHOUT their being recipients of “special treatment” is never made clear. The reason is because of past discrimination and because they used to have a majority. Duh. The solution is to end discrimination and end the domination of or advantage of one race or sex over the other. It’s not to replace one advantage with another. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/337 "2014-03-18T12:43:15Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Exactly. And that’s why if you’re from wealth and a minority, you get a double bonus, while if you’re poor and white, you get a double penalty. And if you’re poor and Asia, forget about it, might as well just go back home. The deck is stacked against you on all fronts. No, adaher, there is no such thing as “wealth and a minority” or “poor and white.” You are either black, white or Asian. All blacks are assumed poor and all whites are assumed rich. No deviation from these assumptions are allowed. If they were allowed, you’d have to, you know, throw out assumptions based on race and scrap all this race-based nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/338 "2014-03-18T15:37:10Z")
I don’t think that’s really fair. But the arguments they make are kind of ridiculous, saying that no white person would want to trade places with Shaq or something. Yeah, right. I’m sure there are some people who would rather be white than rich and famous, but I’m not one of them. Maybe in the 1950s it would be better to be poor and white than rich and black, but that’s nowhere near true in 2014. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/339 "2014-03-18T15:49:19Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I don’t think that’s really fair. But the arguments they make are kind of ridiculous, saying that no white person would want to trade places with Shaq or something. Yeah, right. I’m sure there are some people who would rather be white than rich and famous, but I’m not one of them. > > Maybe in the 1950s it would be better to be poor and white than rich and black, but that’s nowhere near true in 2014. Even if you couldn’t find a single white person who wouldn’t want to trade places with Shaq (and that’s kind of silly to assert), does that mean Shaq needs AA? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/340 "2014-03-18T19:34:32Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Exactly. And that’s why if you’re from wealth and a minority, you get a double bonus, while if you’re poor and white, you get a double penalty. And if you’re poor and Asia, forget about it, might as well just go back home. The deck is stacked against you on all fronts. Go back home where? You mean go back to China or something? Because, you see, that is an example of how your whiteness gives you an advantage over Asians. noone ever thnks of you as being from somewhere else as being an “other” There are a gazillion advantages like this that white males enjoy that you want to ignore and pretend that the playing field is already level. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > My criticism of AA is this: by using an irrelevant factor, it is just as evil and unfair as any other racism or sexism and it ignores the many other sources of disadvantage or advantage that exist. So you understand white privilege and yet you don’t think race is a relevant factor?:smack: > [@](#): > > People should be treated as individuals, not members of a group. Pretty simple stuff. Judging people by their race or sex rather than as people is wrong, even when it means well. But you have an advantage by virtue of your race and gender. All other things being equal, you have an advantage. > [@](#): > > The solution is to end discrimination and end the domination of or advantage of one race or sex over the other. It’s not to replace one advantage with another. Thats funny, becuase all I hear is “we should stop AA because its racist” without any ideas about how to level the unearned advantage that white males have by virtue of their race and gender. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > No, adaher, there is no such thing as “wealth and a minority” or “poor and white.” You are either black, white or Asian. All blacks are assumed poor and all whites are assumed rich. No deviation from these assumptions are allowed. If they were allowed, you’d have to, you know, throw out assumptions based on race and scrap all this race-based nonsense. So do you have examples of rich black kids that have gained admission to some top end college over a better qualified poor white student? Because you keep saying things that indicate that you think this sort of thing is common and there are plenty of anti-AA folks who look for this sort of information that you would think that there would be a million examples of this sort of thing happening. Or is this like when Reagan talked about welfare queens that didn’t really exist. I think we all hope for a day when race doesn’t matter but you seem to insist that the way to get to the point where race doesn’t matter is to pretend it already doesn’t matter when clearly it does. Either that or you have no idea how to fix things but you know you don’t like the one that gives blacks and advantage to counteract the institutional advantages that whites have in society. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818.md?page=18)