# Let's debate affirmative action **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 20, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818 "2014-02-20T20:35:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/141 "2014-02-24T20:22:07Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > But what if they only elect white males? Then the stated goal of electing more blacks and women has failed. So what else should we do? We can’t stop until we have results! Results are all that matters! You realize that there are rules in redistricting that exist to create majority-minority districts with the explicit goal to have minorities elected. Because results are what matters! Of course, that backfired on Democrats quite a bit - but the fact is there is Affirmative Action in voting. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/142 "2014-02-24T20:23:52Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Well, there can hardly be a hard cap given that none of the numbers they deal with are hard numbers including total admissions and enrollments. But okay, let’s say I accept that part. > > So if the University of Michigan Law School, for example, basically came out and said here is our point system, and here is why how we justify using that, you would not have a problem with it? If their point system is race-based, it would be racist and I would oppose it. Or “have a problem with it” as you put it. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/143 "2014-02-24T20:25:21Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Hence the reason men are given preference in limited circumstances. For diversity, perhaps. But not for past discrimination, unless it’s a formerly all-woman’s school. So what happens if and when blacks are represented disproportionately in college, do we give preferences to whites? Is that when you drop the justification that preferences are about past discrimination? > [@](#): > > I didn’t say AA wasn’t important. I said no one was REQUIRED to attend a certain school. Which was your way of implying it’s not important. > [@](#): > > I didn’t claim they discriminate against Blacks. Sidwell in particular is pretty good about not doing that. The point was that a voucher will never cover the tuition of a school like that. All it will do is subsidize rich kids and hurt public schools with kids whose parents don’t give a shit. Okay, back to college - if the primary problem with blacks dropping out of college is money, how do your policies help blacks? They drop out anyway. Shouldn’t you focus on helping them financially too? No, this isn’t your last post to me. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/144 "2014-02-24T20:26:37Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You realize that there are rules in redistricting that exist to create majority-minority districts with the explicit goal to have minorities elected. Because results are what matters! Of course, that backfired on Democrats quite a bit - but the fact is there is Affirmative Action in voting. That’s similar, yes. But what about women? And the Senate? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/145 "2014-02-24T20:27:40Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Don’t even try this nonsense. I don’t have time. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/146 "2014-02-24T20:29:58Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > That’s similar, yes. But what about women? And the Senate? Due to the voting system and fairly homogeneous gender distribution, it’s hard to design any kind of Affirmative Action for women specifically or for Senate seats. But I am sure if there was a way there would be “progressive” clamoring to do just that. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/147 "2014-02-24T20:31:51Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Due to the voting system and fairly homogeneous gender distribution, it’s hard to design any kind of Affirmative Action for women specifically or for Senate seats. But I am sure if there was a way there would be “progressive” clamoring to do just that. We could just give women candidates a 3% bonus vote - they win as long as they get up to 3% less in votes than a male opponent. It’s a “soft” cap. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/148 "2014-02-24T20:33:42Z")
Anyone who says nonsense like: > [@](#): > > I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. is just trying desperately to preserve white privilege. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/149 "2014-02-24T20:35:35Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > We could just give women candidates a 3% bonus vote - they win as long as they get up to 3% less in votes than a male opponent. It’s a “soft” cap. See, that would be too blatant. In order to not infuriate the people who are discriminated against, Affirmative Action has to be fairly well hidden. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/150 "2014-02-24T20:37:36Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > If their point system is race-based, it would be racist and I would oppose it. Or “have a problem with it” as you put it. So what’s with all the transparency nonsense? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/151 "2014-02-24T20:38:26Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > So what’s with all the transparency nonsense? Pointing out that they have to hide what they’re doing. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/152 "2014-02-24T20:46:19Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Please find me two respected people in a relevant field who have conducted peer-reviewed research on the topic who suggest that AA was bad for women. I’m not familiar with any such peer-reviewed research. > [@](#): > > So I guess you now only want to talk about AA in the form of quotas (which are generally illegal) at colleges for Black people? Did I ever say that? > [@ITR Champion](#): > > Women and men seeking admission to college have generally similar qualifications in SAT and ACT scores, GPAs, class rank and so forth. > [@brickbacon](#): > > Now they might, but they didn’t when the program was started. Cite, please. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/153 "2014-02-24T20:50:28Z")
SHOULD quotas be illegal, Brickbacon? Why or why not? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/154 "2014-02-24T20:52:17Z")
> [@ITR Champion](#): > > If students attend a school that is more rigorous than what they’re prepared for, they’re likely to drop out. That’s why affirmative action has been harmful to black and Hispanic students, though not to women. > [@brickbacon](#): > > This is not borne out by the evidence. The overwhelming reason Black in particular drop out of college is money, not because it was harder than they thought. I’ve already provided links to articles that back up my claim. (But to save you the trouble of finding them: [click here](http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/10/the-painful-truth-about-affirmative-action/263122/).) If you want us to believe that blacks drop out of college mainly because of money, why don’t you provide us with a cite? Recall that when California abolished affirmative action, graduation rates among blacks quickly went up. Why? Did they suddenly get a lot more money? Or were they merely attending schools that matched their abilities. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/155 "2014-02-24T21:17:13Z")
It’s too bad it’s impossible to just stop using race as a factor in admissions and use rational factors like grades, test scores and other qualifications instead. You could even use objective measures of potential, not just prior academic achievements. Damn, if only that were possible. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/156 "2014-02-24T21:30:24Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > It’s too bad it’s impossible to just stop using race as a factor in admissions and use rational factors like grades, test scores and other qualifications instead. You could even use objective measures of potential, not just prior academic achievements. Damn, if only that were possible. Hypothetically, you’ve got a black and white student from the same high school. They took all the exact same classes and got the exact same grades. They were both in the same clubs and on the same teams. Their parents make the same income. They score the same on the SATs. The Unviersity that they both apply to thinks they are both qualified, but only has room for one of them. Okay for them to take the black kid? why or why not? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/157 "2014-02-24T21:50:45Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Hypothetically, you’ve got a black and white student from the same high school. They took all the exact same classes and got the exact same grades. They were both in the same clubs and on the same teams. Their parents make the same income. They score the same on the SATs. The Unviersity that they both apply to thinks they are both qualified, but only has room for one of them. Okay for them to take the black kid? why or why not? Exactly, precisely, same scores/achievements? Toss a coin. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/158 "2014-02-24T22:29:54Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If we’re talking about affirmative action as recompense, then it should apply only to African-Americans. > > Besides, in terms of the legality, hasn’t that concept become outdated? I thought diversity was the legal rationale now? Its an executive order at the federal level, not a law. The diversity rationale is really an attempt by schools to move race conscious discrimination beyond remidiation of historical injustice to trying to increase participation by underrepresented minorities. THIS I agree is bullshit. You want to carve out some preferences for the children of slaves and American Indians. Fine by me, they represent such a small part of the college population that if AA is what kept you out, you were a coin toss to begin with. But when you apply the same rationale to hispanics who will soon be the second largest ethnci group in the country (and the largest fairly soon after that), I agree. We are trying to equalize results rather than equalizing opprtunities for those who have had oppostunities stripped from them as a result of grave historical injustice. > [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Yes. This needs to be repeated, evidently, over and over again. it won’t help. A lot of whites (males particularly) have a blind spot. Its not their fault, its just hard for them to see. > [@adaher](#): > > So basically, people compete against others of their race for a fixed number of slots. Wow, that’ll get us to an equal society any minute now! No, everyone but blacks and American Indians compete and then we try to squeeze ina few qualified blacks and American indians that otherwise wouldn’t have otten in on merit alone. > [@](#): > > Affirmative action as it applies to college admissions, on the other hand, is not just senseless, it’s harmful. California’s experience with ending discrimination in college admissions has made everyone better off. The applciation may be wrong but the principle is not > [@](#): > > \*\*Since the passage of Proposition 209, higher graduation rates have been posted at University of California schools,[6] which led opponents of affirmative action to suggest a causal link between Proposition 209 and a better-prepared student body. The African American graduation rate at the University of California, Berkeley increased by 6.5 percent,[7] and rose even more dramatically, from 26 percent to 52 percent, at the University of California, San Diego.[6] > > While African American graduation rates at UC Berkeley increased by 6.5 percent,[7] the enrollment rates dropped significantly.[8] Criticism was made of the fact that of the 4,422 students in UCLA’s freshman class of 2006, only 100 (2.26%) were African American.[9] In fact, opponents of Proposition 209 note that there are greater disparities in elite education in the post-Proposition 209 era due to decreased African American and Latino enrollment. Proponents, on the other hand, note that Asian American enrollment rates dramatically increased at a majority of UC campuses.[10]\*\* > > [1996 California Proposition 209 - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposition_209#Effect_on_enrollment_and_graduation_rates) Enrollment of blacks in the UC system dropped from 1628 in 1996 to 1453 in 1998. Not earth shattering but still. > [@Procrustus](#): > > Otherwise, we would look silly. Not ddirected at you but… Its too late for that. > [@adaher](#): > > As John Roberts said, the best way to stop discrimination based on race is to stop discriminating based on race. says a white male. Sure eventually that is the goal but you havenot made the case that we are there yet. > [@adaher](#): > > I’d say that Prop 209 showed that at least in university admissions, affirmative action is not necessary. Black enrollment dropped about 15% in the UC system. graduation rates rose significantly so there is probably more refinement that can be done. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/159 "2014-02-24T22:47:28Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Hypothetically, you’ve got a black and white student from the same high school. They took all the exact same classes and got the exact same grades. They were both in the same clubs and on the same teams. Their parents make the same income. They score the same on the SATs. The Unviersity that they both apply to thinks they are both qualified, but only has room for one of them. Okay for them to take the black kid? why or why not? Of course it’s okay, if all things were equal and it was a coin toss situation. But that’s NOT what we’re discussing. We’re discussing a situation where the white student has higher qualifications - and yet the school takes the black kid instead. So I’m not sure why you brought this up. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818/160 "2014-02-24T22:48:38Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > it won’t help. A lot of whites (males particularly) have a blind spot. Its not their fault, its just hard for them to see. Of all the cynical, unfair, and indeed racist tactics, this one is one of the worst. You claim the right to just dismiss any opinion that way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-affirmative-action/681818.md?page=9)