# Let's Debate Afghanistan In The Pit. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 15, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812 "2010-07-15T18:44:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/181 "2010-08-04T01:38:42Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I’m gonna back up Uzi here, so I pose the question to the OP and Gonzomax since I guess I will receive a cliched anti war reply sooner or later, anyway the question is quite simple, if the US leaves Afghanistan, like you wish, just packs up and goes, what do you think will replace the current Afghan government, and morally, would it be the right thing to do considering all the alternatives? > > I await your response. We do not have the right to determine what kind of government a sovereign country has. We can not tell China they can no longer be communists. We can not tell Monaco the era of kings is over. Afghanistan has been a mess for a long long time. We have no right to determine what kind of government they should have. But more than that we can not even force them to have one of our choosing. It is impossible. The present government is a corrupt piece of crap that we prop up with our tax dollars and soldiers lives. We have to leave eventually, and when we do Karzai will probably flee to enjoy the life of a billionaire on our tax money. What follows, I don’t know. They have no history for democratic forms of government. They are a country where warlords and drug lords have great local power. I see little hope for them becoming modernized and a potential for the United Nations. They don’t have a leader who can speak or make commitments for the whole country. We can wage war and blow tax money forever, but there is no good end possible. If you are worried about Al Qeada, so are they. They will likely fight any attempt for them to get in power. There are only less than 100 in the country anyway. The idea that they need Afghanistan to plan from is ignorant. A plot against America can be formulated in a rented room in any city in the world. It is an international police problem. Other countries would love to connect with us in an international police action with intelligence gathering on a new scale. This war crap just moves the chess pieces out of our reach. Pakistan is the problem now. Do you want to plod in there next? ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/182 "2010-08-04T10:18:52Z")
> [@Gfactor](#): > > [QUOTE=Restricted Language in The Pit] > Expressions not referred to above but which are normally considered vulgar (e.g., asshole, dick, prick, bitch, kiss my ass) are subject to the following limitations: > > - occasional use only > - no posts consisting solely or mainly of vulgarities. Time for you to stop with the "fuck you all"s in this thread, too. No warning issued. **Gfactor** Pit Moderator [/QUOTE] > [@adhay](#): > > Fuck You All, one more time. You’ve earned a warning for failing to follow moderator instructions. Don’t do it again. **Gfactor** Pit Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/183 "2010-08-04T23:17:51Z")
> [@](#): > > **Gonzomax** > We do not have the right to determine what kind of government a sovereign country has. We can not tell China they can no longer be communists. We can not tell Monaco the era of kings is over. > Afghanistan has been a mess for a long long time. We have no right to determine what kind of government they should have. But more than that we can not even force them to have one of our choosing. It is impossible. A very simplistic argument to make in light of the fact that the Bonn agreement in 2002 was the Afghans in the Loya Girga who made the decision to have Karzai as president, and Afghans who wanted a democratic government. So how did we impose ‘our’ government on them? > [@](#): > > The present government is a corrupt piece of crap that we prop up with our tax dollars and soldiers lives. We have to leave eventually, and when we do Karzai will probably flee to enjoy the life of a billionaire on our tax money. What follows, I don’t know. They have no history for democratic forms of government. They are a country where warlords and drug lords have great local power. I see little hope for them becoming modernized and a potential for the United Nations. They don’t have a leader who can speak or make commitments for the whole country. We can wage war and blow tax money forever, but there is no good end possible. Again, I need to remind you, over and over, the present leader of that crappy government has, surprisingly, a geniuine amount of support from Afghans. So essentially, you’re saying yes, it’s morally correct to withdraw, considering the alternatives, the alternative which being is staying in Afghanistan up until when we determine that they can sufficiently defend themselves. Afghanistan has been in internal conflict for a very long time, and we’ve only been there for around 9 years. It’s going to take longer to at least lay the foundations of a functioning state. Abandoning Afghans because of a localised insurgency on the border with Pakistan (And that’s the crucial difference, it is localised, in the Soviet occupation, it was country wide) is immoral and a betrayal of Afghan confidence in us in not abandoning them. > [@](#): > > If you are worried about Al Qeada, so are they. They will likely fight any attempt for them to get in power. There are only less than 100 in the country anyway. > The idea that they need Afghanistan to plan from is ignorant. A plot against America can be formulated in a rented room in any city in the world. It is an international police problem. Other countries would love to connect with us in an international police action with intelligence gathering on a new scale. This war crap just moves the chess pieces out of our reach. Pakistan is the problem now. Do you want to plod in there next? Pakistan has a well equipped Army, and is fighting the Taliban in its borders. Yes, some terrorists might not need Afghanistan to plan from, however, 9/11 was the reason we went in, and terrorist training camps to train world jihadis was the reason Bin Laden set up camp there. The rationale being if we help create a government which is half decent, then it won’t risk running a repeat of what happened in 2001. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/184 "2010-08-05T01:14:36Z")
How about comparing key indicators of well being from a decade back against today? For example, lifespan, access to clean water, access to health care, access to education, gender equality, employment . . . . ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/185 "2010-08-05T03:50:15Z")
Pakistan has a well equipped and trained army that actually trains and supports insurgents including,the Taliban. As usual our tax money manages to support and train those we are presumably fighting. It is what we do. There is profit in it though. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/186 "2010-08-05T04:42:05Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Back to the point about Karzai. If he is corrupt it is not because someone put him into power. Even if the Afghani’s elected their leader (although I though they had Karzai) that leader is likely to be just as corrupt as Karzai himself. And likely to be a Taliban nut job, or worse, too. So you say we can not win. That is what I said. When it is all done ,a mess or power vacuum will exist there. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/187 "2010-08-05T10:06:18Z")
I’m not so much bothered about what is going to happen there, as to what is going to happen when all these coalition soldiers are sent back home, the vast majority of them with a desensitisation towards muslim-looking folks and their feelings. I suppose we’ll have to find them another war so they don’t get too restless. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/188 "2010-08-05T11:02:59Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I’m not so much bothered about what is going to happen there, as to what is going to happen when all these coalition soldiers are sent back home, the vast majority of them with a desensitisation towards muslim-looking folks and their feelings. > > I suppose we’ll have to find them another war so they don’t get too restless. Iran? Going after those WMDs again. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/189 "2010-08-05T11:06:17Z")
Ahmadinejad had them under his bed all along. No wonder they couldn’t be found in Eye-rack. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/190 "2010-08-05T14:41:06Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > So you say we can not win. We can win, but we’d have to stay a long time, improve the conditions of the average Afghani, and change the culture so that they don’t slip back into tribalism. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/191 "2010-08-05T14:52:52Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > > [@gonzomax](#): > > > > So you say we can not win. > > We can win, but we’d have to stay a long time, improve the conditions of the average Afghani, and change the culture so that they don’t slip back into tribalism. Not a chance. We don’t care if they slip back into the stone age as long as we get to establish bases, help the oil companies with a pipe line and get control of the mineral deposits. We do not do this warring for doing good for some country across the globe. If we believe in the "free market’, why don’t we buy the oil and minerals at market price. Our military is doing the heavy lifting for corporations that want to have cheap access to other country’s resources. That is the history of wars . It is about money. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/192 "2010-08-05T15:21:10Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > help the oil companies with a pipe line What pipeline? Where is it other than in your little conspiracy addled mind? > [@](#): > > get control of the mineral deposits. Do you have control of the mineral deposits? Cite? > [@](#): > > If we believe in the "free market’, why don’t we buy the oil and minerals at market price. You do. Everyone does. Learn a fucking bit about how markets actually work before you spout off this nonsense. Start with [Fungibility](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fungible). > [@](#): > > Our military is doing the heavy lifting for corporations that want to have cheap access to other country’s resources. I wonder how these corporations manage to do business in all the other countries around the world (over 99% of them) without them being invaded by the US military. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/193 "2010-08-05T18:57:37Z")
This was mildly amusing until you popped and stupid uzied out. [Turkmenistan–Afghanistan–Pakistan–India Pipeline - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Afghanistan_Pipeline) The pipe line has been known about and planned for decades. The fact that you are ignorant of it does not qualify it as a conspiracy. It just proves you don’t know what you are talking about. The minerals deposits are huge. They include large lithium deposits. Ever hear of lithium in batteries? There is a lot of potential in future energies. That, believe it or not is not a conspiracy either. You are ululating. Just howling with a complete and utter lack of knowledge. If you really don’t know how often we feel a compelling need to go into a country that just happens to have stuff our corps want or have strategic significance for the military. If you believe we actually invade to make other populations free ,you are sad. Put down your emotion blanket and actually find out what we do and who we are. I gave up believing we cared about the freedom and right of other countries when i was 12. you will be a late bloomer if you can actually open your eyes. [http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html](http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html) This is what we do. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/194 "2010-08-05T19:35:46Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > This was mildly amusing until you popped and stupid uzied out. Did you even bother to read your link? There is no pipeline. And if there is one in the far flung future it will be between Asian countries that MIGHT have some US involvement. MIGHT. > [@](#): > > If you really don’t know how often we feel a compelling need to go into a country that just happens to have stuff our corps want or have strategic significance for the military. Geez, invading countries because of some strategic significance. Who would have thought of that? Moron. > [@](#): > > If you believe we actually invade to make other populations free ,you are sad. You invaded Afghanistan because they facilitated Osama in blowing up a few rather large buildings in New York. Sometimes the simplest explanation is the correct one. Why do the simplest people keep wanting to make it complex? > [@](#): > > Put down your emotion blanket and actually find out what we do and who we are. You mean who you are because you vote the government in. That there are evil people in the world is a given. That we are the only ones, assuming that we are evil, isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/195 "2010-08-05T19:43:31Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > You mean who you are because you vote the government in. That sounds like you are saying the average German citizen during WW2 was equally as bad a person as the SS guard running the death camp. Is that what you are saying? Now, back then, those average German’s didn’t have the access to disinformation that we have, so whether we’d be more, or less guilty if we let it happen now, is debatable. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2010, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/196 "2010-08-05T20:47:30Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > > [@Uzi](#): > > > > You mean who you are because you vote the government in. > > That sounds like you are saying the average German citizen during WW2 was equally as bad a person as the SS guard running the death camp. Is that what you are saying? No worse than your average American banker or arms manufacturer. > [@](#): > > Now, back then, those average German’s didn’t have the access to disinformation that we have, so whether we’d be more, or less guilty if we let it happen now, is debatable. If the shoe fits … ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/197 "2010-08-06T15:35:46Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > > [@gonzomax](#): > > > > This was mildly amusing until you popped and stupid uzied out. > > Did you even bother to read your link? There is no pipeline. And if there is one in the far flung future it will be between Asian countries that MIGHT have some US involvement. MIGHT. > > Geez, invading countries because of some strategic significance. Who would have thought of that? Moron. > > You invaded Afghanistan because they facilitated Osama in blowing up a few rather large buildings in New York. Sometimes the simplest explanation is the correct one. Why do the simplest people keep wanting to make it complex? > > > [@](#): > > > > Put down your emotion blanket and actually find out what we do and who we are. > > You mean who you are because you vote the government in. That there are evil people in the world is a given. That we are the only ones, assuming that we are evil, isn’t. UZI ,there is not a pipeline. There you go. But in order for there to be one, which in case someone can’t translate it into UZi for you, it has been planned on for a long time, we have to secure safe access through Afghanistan and Pakistan. I suppose you believe that those are the very countries we are flooding with soldiers now ,is just a coincidence. We will establish military bases there. We will protect them when the oil companies have determined it is safe enough. If you think we are in Afghanistan to make us safer, you are not getting it. We are making more enemies and the American people are less safe. How does the war in Afghanistan make us safer? Do you really buy that? We are wasting tax dollars by the ton and killing people we have no problem with. remember ,less than 100 Al Qeada in Afghanistan. Over 100,000 troops fighting them? It would have ended in half an hour. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/198 "2010-08-06T17:26:07Z")
I never ever said the war in Afghanistan will make us safer, at least in this thread. I’ve said the reason we are there is because the Taliban harbored Osama! Which is the truth. I feel sorry that you can’t see the reason we are there for what it is, but maybe you should take a trip to New York and to see that the buildings are, in fact, no longer there. Because if you don’t then I am afraid the next crap out of your mouth is that the oil companies were responsible for the 9-11 attacks. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/199 "2010-08-06T17:44:13Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I never ever said the war in Afghanistan will make us safer, at least in this thread. I’ve said the reason we are there is because the Taliban harbored Osama! Which is the truth. I feel sorry that you can’t see the reason we are there for what it is, but maybe you should take a trip to New York and to see that the buildings are, in fact, no longer there. Because if you don’t then I am afraid the next crap out of your mouth is that the oil companies were responsible for the 9-11 attacks. What do you have to say about this? > **[Bush rejects Taliban offer to hand Bin Laden over](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/14/afghanistan.terrorism5)** > > 9.30pm update: \* Taliban demand evidence of Bin Laden's guilt \* Second week of airstrikes starts \* Taliban urges US to halt bombing > [@](#): > > President George Bush rejected as “non-negotiable” an offer by the Taliban to discuss turning over Osama bin Laden if the United States ended the bombing in Afghanistan. > > Returning to the White House after a weekend at Camp David, the president said the bombing would not stop, unless the ruling Taliban “turn [bin Laden] over, turn his cohorts over, turn any hostages they hold over.” He added, “There’s no need to discuss innocence or guilt. We know he’s guilty”. In Jalalabad, deputy prime minister Haji Abdul Kabir - the third most powerful figure in the ruling Taliban regime - told reporters that the Taliban would require evidence that Bin Laden was behind the September 11 terrorist attacks in the US, but added: “we would be ready to hand him over to a third country”. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/200 "2010-08-06T18:14:44Z")
I think it proves that we were in Afghanistan because Osama was hiding there with the consent of the Taliban. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812.md?page=11)