# Let's Debate Afghanistan In The Pit. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 15, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812 "2010-07-15T18:44:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/201 "2010-08-07T01:06:57Z")
[http://afghanistan.blogs.cnn.com/2010/08/06/ex-pakistan-spy-chief-afghanistan-war-lost-cause/](http://afghanistan.blogs.cnn.com/2010/08/06/ex-pakistan-spy-chief-afghanistan-war-lost-cause/) Why is your mind sealed from the obvious and apparent truth? ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/202 "2010-08-07T02:38:50Z")
I read your link. What truth are you talking about? Some guy in Pakistan doesn’t think that Osama was involved in 9-11? Or that we should negotiate with the Taliban who Pakistan supports? That India is destabilizing Pakistan (rather than the other way round, which is far more plausible)? The utterly obvious truth as to why we are in Afghanistan is because of Osama and the Taliban supporting him. Any other reason is one you are trying to make to fit your warped world view. Stop being so paranoid and thinking everyone is evil who, A: is in government, and B: works for a corporation. Stop attributing to malice what can be easily attributed to incompetence. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/203 "2010-08-07T10:07:33Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > > [@Uzi](#): > > > > … > > What you are saying has nothing to do with corruption, but everything to do with incompetent bureaucrats who don’t know how to monitor the work of their contractors. … > > ‘Incompetence’ or ‘misinformation’ is the bullshit govt excuse for corporate corruption every fucking time. (Bush was “misinformed” about WMDs.:p) When they get caught, the incompetent get a “nice try” and the corp get’s a slap on the wrist every time. If those corrupt Iraqi’s made off with $1.5 g, what do you think GE took away? > > **Uzi** , you are either an idiot or a troll. Since we don’t allow trolls here, … . > [@Uzi](#): > > . …Stop being so paranoid and thinking everyone is evil who, A: is in government, and B: works for a corporation. Stop attributing to malice what can be easily attributed to incompetence. Do you actually dress yourself? Still waiting for your response to Gen Butler [Smedley Butler - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler) ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/204 "2010-08-07T11:58:09Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Pakistan has a well equipped Army, and is fighting the Taliban in its borders. Sorry, it took me a while to stop laughing at that one. For something nearer the truth check out this recent article from the London Sunday Times. [Pakistan puppet masters guide the Taliban killers](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/afghanistan/article7149089.ece) > [@](#): > > Pakistani support for the Taliban in Afghanistan runs far deeper than a few corrupt police officers, however. The Sunday Times can reveal that it is officially sanctioned at the highest levels of Pakistan’s government. > > Pakistan’s own intelligence agency, the ISI (Inter-Services Intelligence), is said to be represented on the Taliban’s war council — the Quetta shura. Up to seven of the 15-man shura are believed to be ISI agents. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/205 "2010-08-07T14:04:34Z")
> **[The Daily Show with Trevor Noah | Comedy Central](https://www.cc.com/shows/the-daily-show-with-trevor-noah)** > > The Daily Show is an Emmy- and Peabody Award-winning program that looks at the day’s top headlines through a sharp, reality-based lens. If you want to go directly to the discussion of our Pakistan/Afghanistan difficulties, it starts at about 3:00. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/206 "2010-08-07T15:02:44Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I read your link. What truth are you talking about? Some guy in Pakistan doesn’t think that Osama was involved in 9-11? Or that we should negotiate with the Taliban who Pakistan supports? That India is destabilizing Pakistan (rather than the other way round, which is far more plausible)? > The utterly obvious truth as to why we are in Afghanistan is because of Osama and the Taliban supporting him. Any other reason is one you are trying to make to fit your warped world view. Stop being so paranoid and thinking everyone is evil who, A: is in government, and B: works for a corporation. Stop attributing to malice what can be easily attributed to incompetence. Some guy= former Pakistani Intelligence Chief He says what is well known, Pakistan military supports Al Qeada. He says our intelligence in Afghanistan is bad. That is also well known. He says supply lines are shaky. That should be obvious. He says Karzai is a puppet. Hard to argue with that. People fighting to protect their homeland, fighting on their own turf have a lot going for them. They have been warring for generations. They have honeycombed the land with havens and munition stashes. They are fighting soldiers who come from far away and don’t really know what they are fighting for. It is a fools errand. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/207 "2010-08-07T15:07:16Z")
> [@](#): > > It is a fools errand. Supported only by profiteers and fools. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/208 "2010-08-07T15:13:02Z")
[**Dismembering Afghanistan**](http://www.fpif.org/articles/dismembering_afghanistan) > [@](#): > > \*\*Wars are rarely lost in a single encounter; Defeat is almost always more complex than that. The United States and its North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) allies have lost the war in Afghanistan, but not just because they failed in the battle for Marjah or decided that discretion was the better part of valor in Kandahar. They lost the war because they should never have invaded in the first place; because they never had a goal that was achievable; because their blood and capital are finite. > > The face of that defeat was everywhere this past month. > > According to the Afghanistan Rights Monitor, “In terms of insecurity, 2010 has been the worst year since the demise of the Taliban regime in late 2001.” > > A recent U.S. government audit found that despite $27 billion spent on training, fewer than 12 percent of Afghan security forces were capable of operating on their own. > > Some 58 percent of the American public think the war is “a lost cause,” and 60 percent think the United States should begin to withdraw in July 2011. Only Republican votes in Congress saved the Obama administration’s request for $33 billion to fuel the war in the coming fiscal year. The war is currently hemorrhaging money at a rate of $7 billion a month. > > The British public — the United Kingdom is the second largest armed contingent in Afghanistan — opposes the war by 72 percent, and other coalition forces are quickly abandoning the effort in the war-torn Central Asian nation. Poland announced it would withdraw its 2,600 troops in 2012. The Dutch will be out this August. The Canadians in 2011. The Australians, along with the rest of the NATO allies, declined a plea in July to send more combat troops. > > In a sign of the dire circumstances of the war effort, twice in this past month, Afghan soldiers turned their guns on NATO soldiers. > > A poll by the International Council on Security and Development reaffirms that the NATO alliance is failing to win over Afghan civilians, a cornerstone of success in the current strategy employed in Afghanistan. The poll found that in the two provinces currently at the center of the war — Helmand and Kandahar — 75 percent of Afghans believe foreigners disrespect their religion and traditions; 74 percent think working for foreign forces is wrong; 68 percent believe NATO will not protect them; and 65 percent think Taliban leader Mullah Muhammad Omar should be part of the government.\*\* The war is lost. Much more at source. Keep arguing. Enjoy. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/209 "2010-08-07T15:48:29Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Still waiting for your response to Gen Butler [Smedley Butler - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler) Still dead after 70 years? Or, Zombie Butler has knowledge of Afghanistan? ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/210 "2010-08-07T18:08:16Z")
**Uzi** , one of these days, you (and a good many other minds-stuffed-with-stuff) will choose to open your mind. When that happens, you will find you have a Conscience. And, you will have learned to dance. Tada. Mission Accomplished. Apologies to W. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/211 "2010-08-07T18:44:17Z")
[Smedley Butler on Interventionism](http://www.fas.org/man/smedley.htm) Here is a Smedley Butler page explaining that we intervene in other countries for corporations. He was in charge of doing the dirty deeds. Some rich fucks tried to get him to lead an army to ovetrhrow the duly elected American government. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/212 "2010-08-07T19:04:52Z")
My pirate crew and I tried to take over the American Government last weekend, but since I was the only one who could travel down there at that time (I got some nice surveillance pics), we had to settle for trying to take an American vessel on Wednesday when it came up here. With our pirate hats firmly on our heads, we paddled over to the Bounty, but unfortunately, a severe thunderstorm swept through so we had to return to our pier before we had an opportunity to take the American ship. A good, but all too brief, time was had by all, and we look forward to our next raid in our ongoing efforts to overthrow the American government, for we be the Pirates of the North Shore. Arrrrggh! ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/213 "2010-08-07T19:06:36Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [Smedley Butler on Interventionism](http://www.fas.org/man/smedley.htm) Here is a Smedley Butler page explaining that we intervene in other countries for corporations. He was in charge of doing the dirty deeds. Some rich fucks tried to get him to lead an army to ovetrhrow the duly elected American government. Let me guess that **Uzi** ’s response will be. Afghanistan? Come on bra, give it up to reality. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/214 "2010-08-07T19:11:17Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > My pirate crew and I tried to take over the American Government last weekend, but since I was the only one who could travel down there at that time (I got some nice surveillance pics), we had to settle for trying to take an American vessel on Wednesday when it came up here. With our pirate hats firmly on our heads, we paddled over to the Bounty, but unfortunately, a severe thunderstorm swept through so we had to return to our pier before we had an opportunity to take the American ship. > > A good, but all too brief, time was had by all, and we look forward to our next raid in our ongoing efforts to overthrow the American government, for we be the Pirates of the North Shore. Arrrrggh! Yeah, sure. But if you would PM me your local gps reading, I can do something for you or to you. Your choice. ETA Arrrrggh! ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/215 "2010-08-07T20:05:07Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Let me guess that **Uzi** ’s response will be. Afghanistan? Wars have lots of reasons as to why they happen. Some wars are due to differing ideologies, some due to religion, some due to acquiring power, some for greed. The one in Afghanistan is because of people flying planes into our buildings. Now maybe some people are trying to profit from that for their own purposes, but it doesn’t change the main reason it happened. You’re the one with the closed mind. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/216 "2010-08-07T20:08:33Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > > [@adhay](#): > > > > Still waiting for your response to Gen Butler [Smedley Butler - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler) > > Still dead after 70 years? Or, Zombie Butler has knowledge of Afghanistan? [Mohammad Mosaddegh - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Mosaddegh) Iran is a huge problem isn’t it. In 1951 Mosaddeqh was a democratically elected president of iran. He was going to take over the oil companies because Iran was getting jobbed by BP. The US via the CIA overthrew the government at a request from British MI6. We installed the Shah who was a horrible dictator that made Saddam look like a choir boy. He was in charge for a long time running a reign of terror from the Peacock Throne. It was America at its worst, working for corporations . I think it is nice that some adults can still keep the childish" America wouldn’t do that 'their whole lives. It proves that propaganda does work and we are not wasting all that money. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/217 "2010-08-07T20:32:48Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I think it is nice that some adults can still keep the childish" America wouldn’t do that 'their whole lives. It proves that propaganda does work and we are not wasting all that money. I never said that America wouldn’t do that. I said, and I’ll repeat it for the deaf and blind among you, that Afghanistan was about planes flying into buildings. It is you idiots who seem to think that it is about something else and are showing as proof issues that happened over 50+ years ago. It is interesting that in your other links that when American sent in troops to forward its ‘corporate’ interests it actually resulted in benefits to America. Maybe they should have invaded Afghanistan for the same reasons as history seems to prove, at least according to your links, that they are successful when they do so. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/218 "2010-08-07T20:51:34Z")
So, **Gonzo** , it’s been a pleasure sharing cites with you. **Uzi** lives in his own world and seems to have taken up residence here. So, I’m moving on and will make it a point never again endeavor to teach him to dance, no matter where he shows up. Would calling him a bore be too harsh for the Pit? Please, don’t answer. Over and out. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2010, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/219 "2010-08-07T22:04:54Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > So, I’m moving on and will make it a point never again endeavor to teach him to dance, no matter where he shows up. I have said that Afghanistan is about Osama and flying planes into building in New York. You have said it is about building pipelines. I can prove that people flew planes into buildings in New York, that there were a whole lot of politicians talking about Osama, the Taliban, and going into Afghanistan to get him. Can you prove that there is a pipeline, that Unocal, or any other American company is building it, or that it had anything to do with invading Afghanistan? No, you can’t. Sorry, you lose. And the reason you can’t teach a pig to dance is because you’re the pig. You have no idea how to dance and are actually attempting to sing. So, put up some actual proof, not vague allegations and wackjob conspiracy theories, or shut the hell up. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2010, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/220 "2010-08-08T00:43:06Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Yeah, sure. > > But if you would PM me your local gps reading, I can do something for you or to you. Your choice. > > ETA Arrrrggh! I’m at 48°17’42.8"N,89°23’21.2"W , but we paddle out of Pier 1 at the marina downtown. It’s the yellow forty-footer. We bring snacks on our excursions, so welcome aboard. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812.md?page=12)