# Let's Debate Afghanistan In The Pit. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 15, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812 "2010-07-15T18:44:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/281 "2010-08-18T16:21:43Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > This from Smedley Butler, > [Smedley Butler - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler) > > > [@](#): > > > > a Major General in the U.S. Marine Corps, and at the time of his death the most decorated Marine in U.S. history. During his 34-year career as a Marine, he participated in military actions in the Philippines, China, in Central America during the Banana Wars, the Caribbean and during World War I, he served in France. By the end of his career he had received 16 medals, five of which were for heroism. He is one of 19 people to twice receive the Medal of Honor, one of three to be awarded both the Marine Corps Brevet Medal and the Medal of Honor, and the only person to be awarded the Brevet Medal and two Medals of Honor, all for separate actions. > > This is his summation of his career. > > > [@](#): > > > > I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class thug for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902–1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents. > > Do you actually think things have changed? 😛 > > You may remember that Brown Bros was granddaddy Bush’s bank, the one that looked after Hitler’s financial needs in the US. > [@Uzi](#): > > > [@adhay](#): > > > > Considering how unresponsive you and **Uzi** have been to numerous cites and questions, this is irony, isn’t it? > > All your cites and questions were addressed. You just choose to ignore the answer because it didn’t fit into your little conspiracy-laden delusional worldview. Perhaps I missed your response to my post above. Merely pointing that Butler is no longer with us and not in Afghanistan does not answer his charges that the US Military is in the pay of business/investment interests. Patraeus is just another in the long line of corporate hacks, shucking the American people. BTW, it’s not a conspiracy, it’s just the way our corporate funded govt does business. Wake up, fools. And, **gonzo** , Obama is no exception. That whole gee, if only those darn pubs were not so obstructive, the dems could accomplish something thing is a media charade. They’re all in it together. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/282 "2010-08-18T17:10:19Z")
I know who Obama works for. The international corporations wield incredible power all over the world. When they blow things up like the financial crisis, they give back a little ground but overall just keep getting stronger. Goldman and many other banking houses got government positions on the organizations that were supposed to fix the mess. It was not difficult to predict they would stay strong and actually make inroads into the regulation. Nobody has the guts or the power to stand up to them now.We need another trustbuster to get in power . But that would be a hard sell because Corporations have taken the TV and newspapers into their domains. They just took the internet this week. That was the last open source of information. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/283 "2010-08-18T19:43:35Z")
Rubicons been crossed, I’m not bothering with this thread. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/284 "2010-08-18T19:44:57Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Rubicons been crossed, I’m not bothering with this thread. Promises, promises. Good shot, **gonzo**. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/285 "2010-08-18T20:22:08Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Perhaps I missed your response to my post above. Merely pointing that Butler is no longer with us and not in Afghanistan does not answer his charges that the US Military is in the pay of business/investment interests. The guy was doing most of his work before women had the right to vote in the US. Not really relevant to today, frankly. I’m still waiting for you to tell me how you intend to finance development in the third world without private investments considering most governments in the world are running huge deficits and debts. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2010, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/286 "2010-08-18T21:33:21Z")
And, why don’t you join **Ryan**? Win/win. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/287 "2010-08-19T15:11:35Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > > [@adhay](#): > > > > Perhaps I missed your response to my post above. Merely pointing that Butler is no longer with us and not in Afghanistan does not answer his charges that the US Military is in the pay of business/investment interests. > > The guy was doing most of his work before women had the right to vote in the US. Not really relevant to today, frankly. > > I’m still waiting for you to tell me how you intend to finance development in the third world without private investments considering most governments in the world are running huge deficits and debts. Frankly you have to show that it has changed, You have not and can not. Therefore Butler is still relevant. Unless you can justify your own personal made up statute of limitations? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/288 "2010-08-19T15:25:03Z")
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eKM7r7iDyA](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eKM7r7iDyA) Here is our CIA throwing over an elected government in Guatamala for United fruit Co. We overthrew the legally elected government in Iran for BP and other oil companies. We created a neverending mess with that one. Ike eventually warned us about the Military/Industrial complex determining our wars for profit. This stuff is well known. We did the same in Chile . ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/289 "2010-08-19T15:39:08Z")
[Military-industrial complex - SourceWatch](http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Military-industrial_complex) Here is Ike warning of the complex and how it has evolved into exactly what he feared. The power of defense contractors and their enormous influence has us on a treadmill of war. The corporations pay for right wing think tanks and the members of the tank infiltrate the higher echelons of government. They have enormous lobbying power and access . We will never have peace as long as they are in charge. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/290 "2010-08-19T16:06:58Z")
I have answered and you don’t agree with what I’ve said. There is no pipeline in Afghanistan and the war had nothing to do with it. Yet, I have received no answer on how to finance resource development in the third world without private companies doing so. None. Why should I address any more of your cites about other areas of the world, which might well prove your assertion for that part of the world, but not the one this thread is about, when you don’t deign to answer one single question of mine with any sort of seriousness or even acknowledgment? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/291 "2010-08-19T17:04:48Z")
That was a stupid response. The first thing you do when you build a pipeline is secure the land. You may not have noticed that is proving to be a bit harder than we thought. I was going to give you another site about the proposed route , but you have your eyes and mind shut. Some kiddies can’t and wont learn . Afghanistan is thousands of miles away from us. It is a mess of local war lords, a corrupt government and has been fighting wars for decades. They are zero threat to us. But there we are, waging a stupid meaningless war. It is of no strategic significance to us since we have lots and lots of bases all over the middle east. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/292 "2010-08-19T17:20:28Z")
[Turkmenistan–Afghanistan–Pakistan–India Pipeline - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Afghanistan_Pipeline) Have someone around you explain this to you. it has been in the forefront of all our doings in Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/293 "2010-08-19T18:13:55Z")
[Blog](http://www.ts2.pl/en/Internet-in-the-Middle-East-for-US-Army-Soldiers) Here is a list of military installations in the middle east. Don’t you think that is enough? ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/294 "2010-08-19T18:41:24Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > > [@adhay](#): > > > > Perhaps I missed your response to my post above. Merely pointing that Butler is no longer with us and not in Afghanistan does not answer his charges that the US Military is in the pay of business/investment interests. > > The guy was doing most of his work before women had the right to vote in the US. Not really relevant to today, frankly. > > I’m still waiting for you to tell me how you intend to finance development in the third world without private investments considering most governments in the world are running huge deficits and debts. If by developing third world countries you mean stealing their resources by militarily destroying the local infrastructure and installing armed thugs to police the theft, I think yours is the best plan. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/295 "2010-08-19T19:20:16Z")
Damn. Missed edit. I realize you are quite right, sir. I never did say how I would fund third world development without private investment and you have me asked repeatedly. I apologize. Let’s say you are a peasant in village in an area of rich farmland that you and your colleagues have comfortably tilled for hundreds of years. One day, a man arrives and tells you that some empire or other has declared you living in a brand new country. Given our policy of local self-determination let us help you decide your future. Free elections in 6 mos. Here are the facts. With our expertize and financial help, you can improve your infrastructure, your standard of living and develop your resources to become a player in the first world. For our help, we expect a profit. 6% a year, simple interest. No early repayment penalty Review of books on request. As that peasant, I’d see it as an offer I could not refuse given the “alternative” we offer. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/296 "2010-08-20T01:36:18Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > > [@adhay](#): > > > > This from Smedley Butler, > > [Smedley Butler - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler) > > > > This is his summation of his career. > > Do you actually think things have changed? 😛 > > > > You may remember that Brown Bros was granddaddy Bush’s bank, the one that looked after Hitler’s financial needs in the US. > > > [@Uzi](#): > > > > All your cites and questions were addressed. You just choose to ignore the answer because it didn’t fit into your little conspiracy-laden delusional worldview. > > Perhaps I missed your response to my post above. Merely pointing that Butler is no longer with us and not in Afghanistan does not answer his charges that the US Military is in the pay of business/investment interests. Patraeus is just another in the long line of corporate hacks, shucking the American people. > > BTW, it’s not a conspiracy, it’s just the way our corporate funded govt does business. Wake up, fools. > > And, **gonzo** , Obama is no exception. That whole gee, if only those darn pubs were not so obstructive, the dems could accomplish something thing is a media charade. They’re all in it together. Not this argument again…:smack: So, one high-ranking career officer shares his opinion and now its gospel? Confirms everything in Eisenhower’s “military industrial complex” speech? Get the fuck outta here. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/297 "2010-08-20T06:41:41Z")
Damn, it’s like talking to every stoned idiot at UC Santa Cruz bitching about how Bush was trying to steal their shoes to kill black people. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/298 "2010-08-20T17:14:58Z")
Lets flesh things out for you know it alls. Khandihar is the 2nd biggest city. Population about 500,000. The headquarters for the Canadian military presence is there It is also headquarters for 205th corps of th Afghan National Army. It is not a Taliban stronghold. It was certainly not under Taliban influence in 2003. That is when Karzai and Sherzai ran it with their private police,in their own inimitable fashion introduced them to corruption on a large scale, That was when the Taliban started looking good again. It is not under Taliban rule. The poll that says they prefer the Taliban to the corrupt Karzai government. I can see that. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/299 "2010-08-20T17:24:26Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I can see that. Yeah, you’re not a woman. And the Taliban weren’t corrupt? Please! ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/300 "2010-08-20T20:02:42Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > > [@gonzomax](#): > > > > I can see that. > > Yeah, you’re not a woman. And the Taliban weren’t corrupt? Please! AP Cairo, I saw it in the Denver Post today, you want a cite? , google is your friend. Seems someone bludgeoned someone with a shovel and left him paralyzed. The Saudi Muslim Elite are looking for a surgeon to cut the perp’s spine so that he might share his victim’s suffering. OTOH, the Saudi’s (with heavy US investment) are sitting on oil. Why should we care? Let’s do the Taliban instead. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812.md?page=16)